Hi folks, I just want to solicit a healthy and educational discussion on the true essence of a German Shepherd in relation to working lines versus show lines. I'm pretty lost here.

I've been meaning to get a copy of Capt. Stephanitz's The German Shepherd Dog In Word and Picture to get a deeper understanding of his original aim to breeding the GSD. However, Dogwise.com does not ship to my country. Maybe a lot of your insights would help me clarify a few things.

What I do understand is that the German Shepherd Dog was first and foremost intended to be a WORKING DOG. Good looks are desirable but not a priority. I noticed that the early German Shepherds of Capt. Stephanitz look very much like today's working line GSD's Therefore, a beginner's presumption would be that German Working Lines are more faithful to the original vision of Capt. Stephanitz.

Enter the SV (which the Captain founded himself) and the German Show Lines....the fact that they are coined as "SHOW LINES" means that looks have a substantial weight on determining quality German Shepherds. Yes, they do have to pass the most stringent breeding requirements and Schutzhund tests, then if they are also beautiful, that's the time they get the coveted VA titles and Koerklasse 1's. But I just keep on wondering why can't the gorgeous, SchH-titled show line GSD's perform with the same intensity and quality the stuff that working GSD's do? Or can they? Furthermore, is Schutzhund really all that they need to pass (or excel in) to be considerd as "beautiful and capable of work as well"? And are the stuff that working lines do really more of an exception rather than a miniumum or norm in determiing the essential working ability of a GSD?

Can Larus Von Batu theoretically do the stuff that, say, Jinopo, Leerburg or Baden working dogs do? If not, isn't that going off tangent a bit from Capt. Stephanitz's original vision?

All in all: what is the True German Shepherd?

Baden? aren't they the ones that have the 8 wk old puppies swim across a river through fire to get the bad guy? , go see a working lines dog work and then go see a show lines dog work and compare the 2, and you'll see the difference PDQ,

Believe me, "Baden" dogs can't "theoretically do the stuff that" they claim.....




The "German Shepherd in Word and Pictures" is one of my treasured belongings, simply from a historical viewpoint.
But I believe that if Max was still alive today that he'd be doing his old trick of pulling out his revolver and chasing most of the weak Show dogs off the field ( which he did at an SV show during his colorful life... ).

Ahhh...for the good old days.....

"8 wk old puppies swim across a river through fire to get the bad guy?"

...which, if you think about it, to most of our stable working lines, is really just a 'pool and bbq'. I've never seen the point in doing it.

I don't know about ya'll but I made Brenna read passages of Thoreau and Walt Whitman while juggling baby ducks balancing on a medicine ball before I picked her...;D

So is the difference really nerves, temperament and structure? Would you say the that German working lines are the closest to the Captain's original aim? Just keep wondering why the SV does not recognize the working lines...are they that concerned with looks.

 Quote: John Laurel

Just keep wondering why the SV does not recognize the working lines

Why do you think the SV doesn't recongnize working lines? They have always recongnized working lines

John, I don't understand your question. Who do you think puts on the BSP every year, as well as the regionals to say nothing of the herding trials? How can you say the SV does not recognize the working GSD?

Here is a link to some of his thoughts: http://maxvstephanitz.homestead.com/mvs_temperament.html

"Not recognizing" meaning why can't we see working line dogs as Siegers. I think I forgot to mention that I'm a total beginner when I first posted this topic: I'm really asking questions based on what I've learned so far via the internet these past 2 months or so.

Does the SV hold different standards for show and working lines?

By the way thanks for the link. Another great source of learning!

No the same standards are held... but it's like this.... they require a working title on the dogs to breed, but they don't require a show title, requiring both will destroy the breed. So the working dog folks breed to produce the highest quality working dogs they can so they can excel in sport or work, n they don't take the dogs appearance into consideration because the dogs working qualities are more important, point period. The dog has a job to do, doesn't have to look pretty, looking pretty is for people not the dogs, the dogs don't care how they look.

The show dog folks breed for showing, the dog has to look pretty n be the kinda dog that the judges want to see, n over the years they start getting more and more extreme and thus the entire structure of the showline has changed so that the dog looks more impressive when he stacks. This is at the detriment of the breed, the structure is not sound, but it looks pretty so is bred for, the judges make it worse because it's what they want to see. Look at the american AKC champions, ugliest most structurally incorrect dogs you will ever see. However, the show dog folks have to meet a working requirement in order to breed. So they hold special showline trials that aren't judged as strictly, or they show up to a small trial with a drunk judge who signs the scorebook without even paying attention to the dogs etc, or once in a while you'll actually have a showline who can work, few and far between.

So in short, working dog folks only have to concentrate on the work, n most working dog folks will tell you that the working dog structure and color is really good looking, even though the show dog judges might not think so. Show dog people need to breed a dog that meets a physical standard as perfectly as possible, n if that is your only criterea, that means a very pretty but weak puppy in a litter will be bred to produce even worse nervy dogs. In the ideal world, the weak puppies from working line litters are not bred, because the dogs looks do not have to be taken into consideration, either the dog works or he doesn't. I say ideal world, because there's plenty of people breeding less than quality working line dogs, either due to inexperience and not understanding that they don't have as great a dog as they believe, or because they're just breeding for $$$ n as long as someone buys the puppies they don't care.