i'd be interested in hearing from others how they build (or built) the frustration level in their dogs to get them to play tug. i've watched the video 5 or 6 times in the last few days, and am having trouble engaging cleo with any kind of intensity of tug.

here is my specific situation:

1)i work 9-5, my wife takes cleo off leash to walk the kids with the stroller twice a day for 20 min each walk(now i've told her "on leash only".

2) after supper, i usually take the family out into the street and play 'fetch' for 10-15 minutes

3)i go back to work until midnight and when i come home, take cleo out for a 40-60 minute walk at a park where she can chase wildlife along a fenceline. I usually do 3-5 minutes obediance within the first part of this walk (heeling to cross streets, etc)

4.)on the weekends, i take her to the dog park where she swims and plays chase/be chased with other dogs for an hour and a half each day.

when cleo was younger, she used to LOVE playig tug with the handle-end of the leash. Now, i feel she knows her schedule, and would rather hold out for some 'live-game' or 'dog-park' chasing rather than play with the cloth bumper.

i've tried (in the last two days) to build her frustration level..but i feel like i'm torturing her. I tied her to the couch inside our screen porch yesterday, and brought over the neighbors dog to play tug with where she could see. she cried and wimpered like someone was killing her (probably cuz she wanted to play with the dog, not tug), dragged the couch across the porch, and clawed holes into my screening.

i've also curtailed all activities in her life that involve expending prey drive...no more chasing animals in the park, all walks on a lead, no more dog-park. She almost is acting depressed.

i know its only been two days...but do you think i'm approaching this correctly ....i feel kinda like an a**hole.

now she is pulling large palm branches out of the yard waste pile, and prancing around the yard with them, thrashing and throwing up in the air and catching it...then mouthing it.....

as if to say: "i got PLENTY of prey drive, and i can access it any time i damn well please ! " lol

How old is she?

How do you interest her in the tug when encouraging her to play tug with you? (How do you move the tug, or yourself?) If you drag it on a leash away from her, will she chase it?

Does she not want anything to do with the tug as a prey item or does she just not show the intensity you want when playing tug?

Do you want to begin bitework with her in order to protection train her or do you want to use the tug as a motivator for training?

Just a couple questions to get a better understanding of what you want from her and why you would like to build drive in her.

 Quote: alison voore

How do you interest her in the tug when encouraging her to play tug with you? (How do you move the tug, or yourself?) If you drag it on a leash away from her, will she chase it?

pretty much the same way that was demonstrated on the "Building drive, focus, and grip" video. -- a small cloth bumper (for training retrievers) on a 6 inch rope, and i use quick jerking movements, try not to make my body the prey item...etc.

 Quote: alison voore

Does she not want anything to do with the tug as a prey item or does she just not show the intensity you want when playing tug?

she shows interest...but it seems to wain rather quickly. if she shows a loose grip or puts it down to mouth it - when i kick it away or jerk it away to get her back in drive, it actually works the opposite way....it seems to take drive away from her.

she seems distracted a lot during this game. when i take her for walks, she scouts for cats, raccoons, and possums....and even at hundreds of yards away if she spots one, goes immediately into high drive. if she is in a heel, her movements become extremely jerky, as if trying her hardest to restrain herself. so i know she has prey drive, i just don't know how to channel it into a training tool.

 Quote: alison voore

Do you want to begin bitework with her in order to protection train her or do you want to use the tug as a motivator for training?

yes i do (both)...and i've actually already hired a helper and am at the beginning of training.

 Quote: alison voore

Just a couple questions to get a better understanding of what you want from her and why you would like to build drive in her.

also, some additional info that, while i'm not proud of it, might help in any c&c on this situation.

i started her traing as soon as i got her, using mostly compulsion methods. 2 sessions a day, 10 - 15 minutes each. This may be causing some of these problems, i'm not sure.

another error from my ignorance is, when we used to play tug when she was a puppy (age 4 months thru 1 year), i never let her "win" as shown in the videos (letting her keep the leash we used for tug as a prize). I've since corrected this.


One last note...i took her out tonight, and she did much better. We played tug 3 times, and when i felt/saw her 'counter' on the bumper, i let her have it...then grabbed the 15' light lead loosely, circled her 3 or 4 times bringing her into my arms once per rotation. I tried to end it here, as it seemed to be the high note, and i didn't think one more go-around would be better.

Prolly a weak performance compared to the dogs in the video, but much better than ever before.

she will be two years old in july

here's my bio : http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=132655&page=0#Post132655

I am going through the same with my dog, when I figure it out, I'll be sure to add anything that has worked for us!.

Good luck.

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she shows interest...but it seems to wain rather quickly. if she shows a loose grip or puts it down to mouth it - when i kick it away or jerk it away to get her back in drive, it actually works the opposite way....it seems to take drive away from her.

How often does she win? Not often enough by your description. A dog starting out in lower drive may need to catch the tug EVERY time it's offered and win EVERY tug to build confidence. Dogs think this is pretty cool. As your dog's drive improves over time then you can ask it to counter once before winning a tug or miss once before catching the prey item. Gradually build up your dog's confidence and drive.

Put your prey item on a longer rope. When your dog starts to mouth or put it down to chew, give a series of gentle tugs on the rope. Your dog will get a chance to grip more firmly before loosing the prey item outright.

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i started her training as soon as i got her, using mostly compulsion methods. 2 sessions a day, 10 - 15 minutes each. This may be causing some of these problems, i'm not sure.

This makes a big difference. Stop ALL other training while you work on building drive. I suggest putting the tug on the end of the horsewhip like I mentioned in the other Drive Building thread that is active now. Once you get drive consistently, then focus on "into my arms" to help your dog regain trust in you.

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We played tug 3 times, and when i felt/saw her 'counter' on the bumper, i let her have it...then grabbed the 15' light lead loosely, circled her 3 or 4 times bringing her into my arms once per rotation. I tried to end it here, as it seemed to be the high note, and i didn't think one more go-around would be better.

You simply can't work on the grip if the drive isn't there yet. Stop doing the circling (for now) and only do minimal "into my arms." You need to get the drive going consistently and then introduce these elements back in.

At this point you need to end each session in frustration. Work your dog up into the peak of its drive, then snatch the tug away. These sessions need to be SUPER short - like 1 minute long. You need to do it 3 - 5 times per day (maybe more). You need to quit before your dog even starts to be bored. I'd eliminate all other activities, time loose in the house, any other playtimes until these sessions are starting to improve.

Good luck and have FUN!

Thanks Anne, for the thoughtful and thorough answer....I've been using a longer string on the tug for the last week and its obvious she is MUCH more willing to play with a longer string.

I've also been doing what you said about giving gentle tugs when she hunkers down to chew....this is also working very well. She stands right up and positions a better grip with a posture ready to play tug again. I've also backed off the "into_my_arms" all the time, but have noticed that she is more trusting when i do (she doesn't try to run away with the prey item as much).

I am concurrently watching Ted's thread (who has a similar/same problem and for which you posted a reply to). Thanks for your help.

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have FUN!

Now there's a piece of valuable information that often gets overlooked. Nice one Anne!