I was just wondering if anybody has had any experience with Presas as PPD's, particulary from Red Star Kennel. Ther web site looks quite impressive, but since I really have NO CLUE as to what really protection work is I'd like some opinions. I've read articles, but I've never seen PPD live.

Thanks
enrique

Enrique,

Contact the breeder. She will tell you that they're not really a true working breed although the kennel does produce dogs that are able to work. I saw a dog produced by this kennel working. I was mostly impressed by the dog (I love bullies) so I don't remember much about the dog's working ability.

The kennel does have a training group - I believe they meet Sunday mornings?

When I was corresponding with the breeder, I was very impressed by their honesty and professionalism.

So, like someone said here, are the dogs on the low end of the working spectrum??? Anybody? Do you think they really are PPD's? Expert opinions needed. I also love bully breeds, but it seems that GSD's are better (DUH!). Right?

Last year i started researching the Presas and Cane Corso for prtection work. Everybody that i talked to seemed to lead back to the GSD,BM and the Dutchys for Sport and PPD.So i had a GSD imported from the Czech Repiblic. Yes i like the massive bully look, but when it comes down to it,I love my working breeds. I'm not saying you would not find one that does PPD.i'm just saying its alot harder. I own 2-French Mastiffs as my pets and 2 awesome working GSDs. I love them both.

Enrique,
I don't know red star kennels but I do know somebody that has Presa's and she loves them. They are full on ppd's also. I have also done some work with Cane Corso's. The Presa's that I'm familiar with seem a bit explosive. One of the things that keeps me away from them is there life span is typically 8 yrs. long. I just can't spend all that time and energy (not to mention the love) on a dog knowing that I'm not going to have it around long.

Yeah, I have my gsd too, and I suppose that when it comes down to it, when it really comes to life and death, the gsd's, mals, etc have the edge. I just can't imagine really that a presa would go into avoidance when the pressure is up. Any opinions from Will or VanCamp? Ed maybe?

The one thing that people see in those type of molossus breeds is that when excited rather it's during bite work or simple high play, they are very powerful dogs.Look how many woman get dragged on the field by their GSD, can you imagine a presa or French Mastiff if it gets excited and is determined to go where it feels to go? I know we have good control and obedience when we do Schutzhund or PPd but there are times where we do loose that control and we can go get our dog off the helper if needed, but on a dog that weighs over 150 that is a huge challenge. I was raised with Dogue De Bordeaux , I had one until the year 1997, I got my first French mastiff from Peter Curly who owned Hooch (from the movie) in the movie you had 2 dogs Barry & Beasley and Peter Curly owned both dogs but sold them to Disney.
But back to your question I thing it's really hard to make a dog that weighs way over 100LB a good PPD that is easily controlable.Look at the 2 attorneys that owned the 2 presa, she could not stop them from killing the woman in their Condo hallway. If it would have been 2 GSD, i think they could have been stopped quicker..So it comes down to Liability issue, A PPD is good for stopping a threat and perhaps apprehending but to kill "a Person" ..I don't know if I need that size of PPD..It's great to have a big PPD but not to be able to over power it if needed 100% of the time, no thanks....

Angelique makes some very good points.

If you have a legitimate NEED for a protection dog (not just for the fun of training...) then a molosser gives an intimidating impression that may make the bitework part unnecessary. I bet a Presa trained a bark and hold could keep the Mythbusters out of a property

The Presa is not going to live as long and I am under the impression they tire more quickly.

Enrique - you are looking for a future dog to showcase your skills as a trainer - correct? My gut feeling is to select an attractive, animated and flashy dog/breed. Malinois or Dobe comes to mind as far as appearance in OB exercises. If you are selling your skills as a trainer, a willing and animated dog will impress - whether for protection sport or pet training.

My favorite book (I'm serious) "Training the Behavior" has a very good section discussing the pros and cons of the various common working breeds. Basically it comes down to the handler's abilities and preferences.

Between the working breeds, the differences show more when the dog is not working. That's a reason in itself to choose a breed and an individual dog that suits your temperament.

I quote from "Training the Behavior" sold on the main Leerburg site, I might add (again).

 Quote:

If the job of a Rottweiler trainer is to push and motivate, the job of the Malinois trainer is to calm and stabilize.

Consider your temperament and your best training skills when thinking about choosing a breed.

I see good points here, but like I told Ang and others, I just bought a house in a pretty rough neighborhood and there is a ligit need for a protection dog. Like I said, I'm more inclined for the gsd's, but you know, as humans we always think the grass is greener on the other side . I have my gsd and a St. Bernard, and I'm adding a puppy, so my question was only to convince myself that I'm doing the right thing with another gsd.

 Quote: angelique cadogan

The one thing that people see in those type of molossus breeds is that when excited rather it's during bite work or simple high play, they are very powerful dogs.Look how many woman get dragged on the field by their GSD, can you imagine a presa or French Mastiff if it gets excited and is determined to go where it feels to go? I know we have good control and obedience when we do Schutzhund or PPd but there are times where we do loose that control and we can go get our dog off the helper if needed, but on a dog that weighs over 150 that is a huge challenge. I was raised with Dogue De Bordeaux , I had one until the year 1997, I got my first French mastiff from Peter Curly who owned Hooch (from the movie) in the movie you had 2 dogs Barry & Beasley and Peter Curly owned both dogs but sold them to Disney.
But back to your question I thing it's really hard to make a dog that weighs way over 100LB a good PPD that is easily controlable.Look at the 2 attorneys that owned the 2 presa, she could not stop them from killing the woman in their Condo hallway. If it would have been 2 GSD, i think they could have been stopped quicker..So it comes down to Liability issue, A PPD is good for stopping a threat and perhaps apprehending but to kill "a Person" ..I don't know if I need that size of PPD..It's great to have a big PPD but not to be able to over power it if needed 100% of the time, no thanks....

every word worth repeating! giant breeds are very dangerous in PP work for this reason. please stick with a breed you are able to physically overpower, if necessary, if you want to train for PP.

i've owned Mastiffs for over 40 years and love them dearly, but would NEVER
EVER train one for PP, even if they had the aptitude for it (which, in general, they do not.)