For a sport, ppd,ring or psa dog the out has got to be one of the most important commands. In all these sports a dog is sent on a bite, does battle with the decoy and then asked to out, or release the bite. In our club dog abuse is not exceptable. ie whiping, beating, kicking etc. But what is an exceptable practise to a hardened dog that will not out. That means not outing through a double "E" collar, double sharpened prong collars. The harder you try to out the dog the harder the bite and the stronger the drive.... What can be done for a dog like this, what degree of pain becomes dog abuse. I saw a dog this way not long ago. So far I have not heard a good idea on how to train such a hard dog. what do you think about the "OUT" how important is it ? How would you solve a problem with this type of a dog???

Personally, I think the dog's training on the fundamentals isn't what it should be. When he's on the bite he elects to hang on and your orders can be ignored. Single or double e collar at that point will probably send him into a higher drive because he perceives the helper is fighting back and hurting him so he has to fight harder going into fight/survival mode. Go back to square one, put him on a sleeve holiday and get his obedience spot on.

Sharpening prongs, to make it hurt more, to get his attention? Shocking him with two collars, cause one doesn't hurt enough? Lance says abuse is unacceptable but when I googled abusive training techniques they had a picture of Lance's club.

Another trainer/club may provide you with solutions that are better thought out. If anyone outside your club discovers this crap I damned sure wouldn't want be the one explaining these "Training techniques" to the evening news or in court during the animal cruelty hearing.

Such problems are best dealt with a very experienced dog trainer in person with an evaluation of both the dog and the training it has received.

We have a responsibility to maintain all dogs under control and balance drive and discipline.

Or you could just ask the dog nicely to "please let go or the others will laugh at me"

FYI it's Aus not Oust... Oust is an air freshener

If a dog knows the command, he must obey it...not obeying is punishment in order to get your point. If a dog always disobeys your command and the tools you name, have to be used all the time without a proper reaction, you should have to take a look in the mirror...´cause you probably didn´t learn him the command properly..

Tools, if thought about and helps you to make your point, can´t be abusive. A lot depends on your dog. Correct a chihauhau on a dogtra 1700 at level 100 is most likely very much to much, for a KNPV cross it could be not enough to make your point.. For a example.

Edited by Selena van Leeuwen (03/23/2007 05:49 PM)
Edit reason: added somethin

I advocate the whole see the dog, see the handler, see the context thing on the board all the time. I use a slip, prong and an e-collar for Jäger. They are tools and I am a firm believer in positive and negative reinforcement to modify a dog's behavior. I'm not advocating touchy-feely group hug dog training, but the OP said:

But what is an exceptable practise to a hardened dog that will not out. That means not outing through a double "E" collar, double sharpened prong collars.."

Someone is out of control if their training requires modification of a mainstream prong collar to inflict more pain. I googled "double sharpened prong collars" and got zero responses. Out of the entire world wide web, no hits for that device, it must be a good idea. Nobody makes them, nobody has a treatise on employing them, googling "Sharpened prong collar" brings three hits, two from Leerburg four years ago, and one from some people in europe several years ago. This must be a good idea.

Double e collar, once again, I can't punish my dog enough with one e collar, let's use two! And someone else said "What a great idea, here, use mine."

A dog that doesn't respond needs to be corrected. Not complying with a command should bring an unpleasant event that's appropriate for the dog. The unpleasant event is almost always uncomfortable/painful. The dog learns to avoid the pain by complying. I do this with my GSD. I'm not advocating counseling for the dog or putting it in a time-out chair, or taking away it's toys. I'm saying sharpening the prongs on a collar because the regular prongs don't inflict enough pain is abusive. Veterinarians were surely consulted in e collar design. If double e collars were humane/efficient wouldn't a manufacturer make a stronger collar, or a system to use two at once?

An improperly fitted prong is an ineffective prong. An improperly fitted e collar (even two of them) is ineffective. Lance and his dog may do well to have the dog evaluated by someone else. Either no one on the planet's dog is as hard as Lance's, or, someone's doing something wrong with the training. And maybe this dog's mental profile/temperament says he's not a suitable candidate for this training.

Finding creative ways to stimulate your dog to gain it's compliance should be a major warning sign of abuse.

It's abuse if it's misused, but what do you do if you have a dog who will not respond to anything else? Have you ever seen a dog that had to be hung till he passed out, then got back up n walked around with his tail wagging high in the air? You already told the dog "I'll kill you for doing that", what could be worse!?

Mind you I'm not saying that's the way to go with the dog in question by the OP... I'm just saying that there are dogs out there where you have a choice -- either the dog gets put down, shot, or you make the dog understand what is unacceptable. Unfortunately alot of people opt with "shoot the dog". Maybe thats not abusive?

Red you kill me...lol. You assume that it is my dog, MY club. I have three GSD my tri tronic 500 0n 2 is more than enough for my dogs. I prefer my herb springer. Lucky for me I under stand the collar is a tool to help the dog listen not a punishment of electicution. The dogs I refer too are not mine. nor did I say they were. However I do agree two collars is over the top unless you have a dog that is very hard like a knpv dog that is handler agresive.In this case u would surely put on two prong collars one for the handler and one for a training director so that both people can safely keep each other from getting bit. Red I would love to know the title your dog holds in any sport other than AKC obedience. Before you haul off and attack me, you better know me my dogs and what titles I hold in how many dog sports. You have taken a simple question about the out and how to teach it and spewed your uneducated abuse at me. BAD SHOT

 Quote: red thomas

when I googled abusive training techniques they had a picture of Lance's club. ... If anyone outside your club discovers this crap I damned sure wouldn't want be the one explaining these "Training techniques" to the evening news or in court during the animal cruelty hearing.

Red, what the O.P. asked for was other forum members' opinions and advice about how to train a hard dog who won't out.

Your response isn't appropriate, to someone asking for ideas about training.