Hi everyone,

I'm new to the forum and am so happy to have found this site and forum! My GSD is 2yo and in training to be a service dog. I'm training him on my own with the assistance of a trainer, and now some of Ed's dvd's. Up to this point Scout hasn't be primarily trained with the e-collar and not positive correction. I was cautioned against that kind of training. However, I found this site and the advice of several others, and am changing things up a bit now.

Thank goodness Dogs are flexible and can forgive the past inexperience of their trainers.

I'm prerparing Scout for his CGC test in a few weeks and honestly I think he'll do great on everything but two things. He has problems standing still when others pet him and brush him. He gets very excited and usually ends up on the floor, all fours in the air for a tummy rub. If I correct him with the e-collar he starts pawing the person. Voice corrections don't work much at all. I know I need to practice, practice practice. But I was wondering if there are things I can do to help him calm down?

THe other issue is greeting another person with a strange dog. I can't guarantee that he'll complete this successfully. From my understanding, the person simply walks by with the dog. THe chances of Scout remaining in a sit are about 75%.

I would love to hear suggestions from some more experienced handlers.

BTW...I have ordered the DVD on building drive and focus. Scout is prey driven.

Hi and welcome!

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He has problems standing still when others pet him and brush him. He gets very excited and usually ends up on the floor, all fours in the air for a tummy rub. If I correct him with the e-collar he starts pawing the person. Voice corrections don't work much at all. I know I need to practice, practice practice. But I was wondering if there are things I can do to help him calm down?

Well, River, I've always thought that service dogs shouldn't be petted by anyone except their owners. He seems like a loving dog with submissive behavior, and I wouldn't recommend the e-collar for those cases. Who is brushing him? I assume someone close to you?

By "those cases" I mean when he gets on all 4 when someone pets him, not for loving submissive dogs. Then again, training a service dog can be different.

The other case (breaking the sit command) is different. Do you use an electric collar to correct him? How did you teach the sit stay? With markers and food rewards or with corrections?

It's not easy being a service dog. Most service dogs are chosen after they are trained, not the other way around. Some dogs are just not up to it.

What "service" are you using the dog for? This may make answering a bit easier.

When you allow people to pet your dog, and he goes into submission like that, have the people stop petting (they are rewarding that behavior). Bring him into a sit or a stand and start over. You can use a few treats to accomplish this. He will learn that rolling over to his back gets him nothing.

Please note, I do not let ANYONE pet my dogs while they are in a down position. People have to bend over the top of the dog and some dogs see this as a dominance display and do not like it.

A sit or a stand is fine and I tell them to pet the shoulders or under the chin of the dog and not the top of the head. This is another dominant display.

Your dog sounds submissive so you need to build his confidence. Therefore, he should not get rewarded for anything that is submissive behavior.


As far as the CGC test...you need to train for and beyond what the requirements are. Therefore, you should be working with another handler and well mannered dog to walk past you and be teaching the dog not to break position.
Have you tried a fur-saver or prong collar for this.
I do not use my e-collar for anything other than chasing cats, game and livestock because all of my dogs have high prey drive and sometimes they "forget" that I am around when they are out. Dogs will be dogs.
I will not allow myself to rely on an e-collar for obedience just yet. I feel that if my dog is not listening to me for basic commands, then I have messed up somewhere in my leadership.

Like Richard says, service dogs take alot of work and sometimes are just really not up to task.

I wanted to get my dog ready for the CGC test also. What does that test involve?

Nevermind. I did a simple internet search and found the test.

I wonder how much weight the CGC really carries. My Chow is still aggressive at times but passed his test about a year ago when he was really bad. He let the trainer keep him while I left the room and allowed her to groom him lightly. He's never been much for other dogs so they don't bother him. He still growls at us from time to time but could probably still pass the test. Many people think "Yeah Right" about him having his CGC but he passed the requirements which is why I ask.

River, what Carol said about correcting the laying down behavior of your dog is THE perfect correction, IMO, because it's a positive correction and somewhat a training issue (behavior change). I personally can't imagine (and would never do so) using the e-collar for submissive behavior, which is what your dog is exhibiting. To give a negative correction (e-collar zap) for a submissive behavior makes no sense. He needs confidence, not a negative correction.

OMgoodness, is that the cutest Beagle Puppy or what?!

First let me thank everyone for their replies to my question. Several days ago I wrote Ed about my dog and the trainer I've been using. He quickly informed me that I've been misinformed and have used the incorrect methods to train my dog.

Since that time, I've met a man who is experienced in training service dogs and he gave me some great advice. First of all, everyone who recommended against the e-collar in the meeting and greeting, you were right. I''m using the soft prong (a new plastic prong collar) to correct him to not roll over and remain in a down when meeting people (not for pets). To be petted by a stranger, he's in a sit and the petting stops once he breaks the sit or begins to get overly excited.

I'm only relying on the collar when he barks and pounces at other dogs, he gets a commmand to sit or down and if he continues to bark he gets a mild stim.

My instincts were correct that the stim is ramping him up rather than calming him down and allowing him to focus on me.

It's difficult for me to do physical corrections, but I've found that when greeting other people, the physical corrections work best of all. Last night a two year old and her father came over. Previously Scout was uncontrollable around the baby and had to be put in his crate. Well...last night I used physical corrections on him and he was actually able to stay in the room with the baby (who has no fear of dogs and did everything she could to get his attention) for 20 minutes. He wasn't perfect and broke the commands alot, but when corrected with the collar, he responded and I didn't hurt myself physically. I was very encouraged.

AS for the CGC test, the original trainer recommended it for Scout as an exercise and goal for us, not as some sort of official cert by any means. I'm interested in pursuing it for fun.

Thanks again for the suggestions. I am completely committed to Scout and his progress as a service dog for me. Our next step is retrieval. Thank goodness we have met a trainer who has vast experience in teaching the retrieve the correct way.

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I've always thought that service dogs shouldn't be petted by anyone except their owners.

Yes, I agree. But as a service dog he needs to be able to handle people touching him. There are people who do "drive by petting" in other words they put their hands out and touch him as they're walking by. There are kids who always push the limits with dogs in public, they tease him and will walk up to him and pet him (their parents don't teach them not to pet strange dogs), and there are adults who pet him and talk to him. Many people are ignorant about service dogs. Because of this he must learn to ignore people and their ignorant gestures.