Hi - I have a new female collie pup that I bought to use in my breeding program. I am a novice breeder. She is 7 months old and is very sweet. I do not think that she was socialized as a pup in the regard that she was never taken anywhere outside of her breeder's farm environment. We have had her for almost three weeks now, and she is a nervous wreck. She is happiest in her kennel, she gets spooked in the yard easily (she was raised outside), she runs when she sees new people, and she cowers in any new situation. On the other hand, in the house she is now confident, plays with the kids and dogs, and seems to like life. This is as of today and is a relatively new development. Before she would wander around whining like she was lost. She paces in the yard like something is after her. She only started eating 3 days ago - i have been having to give her calorie supplements to keep her nutrition going. Is is possible to take a dog this nervous and train her to be an overall well rounded confident dog? Any advice would be great. Thanks in advance,
Kyra Hammond
Blackwater Collies

IMHO, this bitch is a very poor prospect for use as a brood -- Depending on whether she's a nerve-bag because of being born with a faulty temperament, or thanks to the deplorable lack of proper socialization on her breeder's part, you MAY possibly be able to tone down her excessive shyness through lots & lots of desensitizing (but I would NOT count on it too much)...

If I were you & really wanted to produce excellent SOUND Collies in the future, then I would stay out of the breeding business entirely, until I learned how to correctly evaluate puppy temperament & the suitability of adult breeding stock (plus other breeders' practices!) -- Personally, I would return this young bitch to that "breeder" and never buy another dog from them, ever <:-(

Hi Candi,
First let me say thank you for your opinion. Secondly, let me say that I am not new to dogs, only to breeding. I have not bred a litter and don't plan to for at least another year. I do plan to show my dogs in the future. I worked in several vet's offices for a total of 10 years. I have done rescue since 1996 for cats, min pins, collies, shelties, rotties, and mixed breeds. I consider myself to be a fairly intelligent person with somewhat of a knowledge of animal behavior, although I am by no means an expert. I trained all of my personal dogs myself for basic obedience from the time they were puppies.

I had a friend of mine who is a collie breeder personally evaluate this bitch. The breeder brought her to my friend's house as they live closer to each other than I do to either of them. I spoke to the breeder for about 2 months about this girl before purchasing her. The breeder and my friend both assured me that she was a confident, happy, loving puppy who loved to play and seemed relatively at ease even at my friend's house. She put her hands all over her, etc, and felt that she was a good prospect with a nice temperment. None of us expected her to just freak out like this.

It is my understanding that puppies can be socialized properly even if the mom is nervous by not allowing the mom to be present during the outings. This is, of course, if the bitch is comfortable in her own environment and will not teach the pups any fear behavior from the start.

I want to produce collies that will be part of someone's family for a lifetime, not given back to me because they won't adapt or have issues. Sound temperment and overall general health are my goals. It is my impression that this dog has socialization issues and not general temperment issues. She will allow me to handle her all over, including her feet and tail. She utterly loves my children and is very careful around them about not knocking them down and is extremely gentle with them. She has no cat issues. She has many positive qualities about her that I appreciate. Her fear of new situations is obviously not one of them. I don't want a bitch that will teach her puppies fear. That is the original purpose of why this question was posted.

If I'm going to breed, I want to do it right. I've done as much background research as i know how to do and don't know how to learn if i don't get my feet wet.

I certainly appreciate any comments and suggestions. Thank you.

How long have you had this dog? Is it possible to return her? The reason I say that is because I'm sure there are some bitches out there that do not have these issues and still have the qualities that you enjoy in this one. It seems like an awful lot of work for you to go through, for an uncertain outcome.

If I were a buyer looking for a pup, the bitch's temperament would be of high importance to me, and any signs of nervousness or shyness would certainly be a deal breaker for me.

This dog should certainly be socialized just in the interest of making a happier dog and a better pet. But from what I understand, breeding is so complicated and full of potential problems that I would think that stacking the deck in your favor from the beginning (by having a sound brood bitch) would be the way to go.

Just my 2 cents as a buyer, not a breeder.

three weeks is a long time in the life of a puppy. if she's still a nervous wreck just from havnig moved to a new home, i would bet she has inborn temperament issues and i would return her.

it's normal for pups to need time to adapt to new circumstances, but three DAYS should be plenty. three weeks--uh-uh.

if she were just going to be a family pet, you could choose to work with her and see what you get. but i would never breed a dog that behaves as you describe.

Some fear is the result of genetics, and some the result of upbringing. I would agree with the others on this one. If this issue is popping up now, it's more than likely genntic. Taking 3 weeks to be comfortable enough to eat is far from normal.

I have a dog that came to me with some fear issues and a major lack of socialzation, pretty much unsure of the world. She spent most of her first 2 weeks with me in her crate (comfort zone)in a corner, but she was still eating within a day and a half.

Hi Kyra

I fostered a rescue dog from age 9 months to 20 months. He was very much like you described - chained in a back yard basically from 8 weeks and never taken out of that yard until he came into rescue. Completely unsocialized.

During his stay with me he improved A LOT. A lot. But he will never, ever be a confident dog. Even up to the time he was adopted, he was spooked by new objects (i.e. a new outdoor trash can I bought, or a patio chair lying on its side rather than standing up). He was also spooked by sudden noises.

He was much more confident outdoors than in.

I don't know his parents so it may have been genetic - who knows. But I do know that at 20 months old, his fear still hadn't been completely resolved and probably never will.

The way I see it, based on my experience, you have two options.

1. Since she is only 7 months and you presumably won't breed her until she is at least two and a half, you could try extensive socializing and lots of activity (exercise, training, play - this helps a lot) and see if her fear resolves itself. SHe may just be undersocialized. If she isn't absolutely perfect by 2.5 years, you could spay her and sell her or surrender her to rescue.

2. Return her to the breeder now and get your money back, go elsewhere and start over.

You have to keep in mind that this dog is an investment for you, she's basically a foundation bitch from which you will be basing your lines. You can't really afford to screw up because your reputation as a breeder will be on the line (especially as a new breeder).

I wish you luck with your decision! It's a tough call. Collies are beautiful dogs

In my opinion, a dog with strong nerves would not be that fearful even if they were not properly socialized. If I were looking to buy a puppy and I saw that the mother was fearful, I would walk away. Not to mention when people ask you about the temperment of the mother and you are honest about your experiences with her, it will set people back. And if this is genetic (and it almost always is) then people will be returning puppies to you and that will cost you time and money and hurt your reputation.

Breeding dogs is an expensive investment and sometimes you have to just take the losses and move on. I seriously doubt that this dog will get over her issues. You can't really "train" a dog out of being afraid. My advice would be to spay her, sell her and start over. In a country where 9 million pets are being put to sleep a year, we should only be breeding those of the highest quality.

I got my dog at 8 weeks. He was very confident around his littermates, trips to the park with the breeder (with the litter), temperment tested by a third party very well. When I took him away from his litter and home, only then did I realize how skittish he was. With two months off to spend all my time socializing my new pup, things have worked out well and he makes a fine working dog for me as I was able to use his high drive, and my strong but patient leadership to overcome much shyness. He can work with awsome drive through distractions as diverse as strange dogs, helicopters and explosives. I had an earlier start than you, but what I am trying to say is that considering your dog is improving, with hard work and patience, you can probably make great headway.

That said, I had my dog altered at 6 months. This even against my vet's advice (who breeds the breed I have, but was not my breeder). I think that the breed needs better temperment than the dog I have. He has great drive and structure, but is just a little to shy/aloof/skittish for my liking. He is a great dog, but without strong pack leadership, a job and a lot of work, he could have been a disaster in a pet home (read: fear aggressive). I have had inquiries about breeding him, and I am not shy about saying yes I have turned him into something good and manage his issues well but in my opinion, he is best left out of the breeding pool.

Keep your bitch if you want to because you love her and can help her over many of her issues. Don't breed her. Better not to worry about your first litter having temperment issues passed on. Can I assume this shyness would affect the dog's working ability? If you are breeding working dogs, you can do better. If you are breeding pets you can do better. If you are breeding show dogs, even if she has great structure, it is not worth the strikes on the other two. Maybe you can strike a deal with this breeder to keep the dog on a non-breeding agreement for a reduction in price, and look for a more confident girl that greets new situations with confidence without a tonne of work. Then you will truely be doing your breed a great service.

JMO,

How can you tell the difference in a sensitive breed such as a collie or sheltie between lack of proper socialization and inborn fear?

I would have obviously avoided her if she had shown fear in her home environment or at my friend's house as that would have been a sign to me of inborn fear. However, she showed none of that on evaluation, the same as what happened in Jennifer's situation.

Your opinions have all been extremely valuable to me, and I appreciate them immensely!