Hi - I was wondering what member experiences were using the "Submissive Dog Down" (laying the dog on it's side)

Specifically - for what situation/training objective and how did it work out for you?

I am starting to use this and would like some wisdom from the experienced trainers here. I also just watched an episode of Cesar Milan where he made one of his dogs in his dogpack do a submissive dog down just by pointing at it. Is it really possible to get to that point or is that just Hollywood?

Thanks! Kelly

Hi Kelly,

I also have used this down. Most recently with a dog with some, I believe, learned fear behavior/body language. This dog used fearful body language to get out of doing everything it's owner's tell it to do. She sucks into your body every time you have her on leash and she doens't want to walk with you. It's a real problem to have a 50# dog insisting that she be practicly between your legs as you are walking.

I use this down to teach her some independence from me first. A regular down would result in her breaking and running to me as soon as she got tired of the down. So I started putting her on her side for long intervals, she seems much less inclinded to get up from this position. After working this for a week she will now sit, down, and wait independently for however long I ask. Her improvement after this is really something. She now seems to know that showing confidence feels better than sucking up and getting stepped on all the time.

To me, doing this to what sounds like a dominant dog is not to far off from "Alpha Rolling" a dog (putting it on it's back forceably to gain submissiveness.) If it does not want to do this out of fear I would think forcing it would only make it more fearful. My chow will down and lay on his hip (a normal or proper down I guess) but as a dominant/aggressive dog he is very reluctant to laying on his side (if this is what you mean).

I completely agree when dealing with submission, patience is a must but I don't think forcing a dog on his side will do much other than compress agressive tension to be possibly released on a lesser able handler or in the event you make a mistake.

I trained Bruno with praise and treats but first from a distance. The experience was not a negative one and he will now lay on his side (sometimes on his back) for me and pretty much no-one else. If I want to pet his side while he's in this position I first start with his head (he loves his ears mangled) then move slowly to his side. If I want to praise him I have to wait until he's upright again. He'll growl instantly the second you direct vocal contact to him when he's in such a submissive posture. Maybe I'll work on that sometime. Now it's not an issue for me.

I know not many dogs are as much of a challenge as mine but my experience has taught me not to force train submission if I want long term, less dangerous results.

To answer the original question, I use the down thingy you mentioned to re-inforce that he will still submit on a regular basis. I'm the only one who still really interacts with him like this so when visitors are around, he's either on a lead or secured. People who know him leave him alone but people who do not know anything about him go straight for his face and more than likely nothing would happen but 99% is not fool proof! My family finally understands the importance of the protocol with him and usually follow it. My oldest still thinks she's invincible but is also finally seeing the light

Just my 2 cents.

 Quote:

Hi - I was wondering what member experiences were using the "Submissive Dog Down" (laying the dog on it's side)

Specifically - for what situation/training objective and how did it work out for you?

I have a very focused and obedient dog. He does not love to be physically handled. He can tolerate it well though. He would consider being flipped into a submissive down akin to being rolled I think. If he was standing there and I tried to put him into a submissive down without me saying anyting he would squirm hard and try to escape!

However, a submissive down is still very necessary for proper examination and care or my dog, dealing with injuries, seeing the vet, and just generaly having him be comfortable in that position with me and other pack members over him in a submissive position.

 Quote:

I also just watched an episode of Cesar Milan where he made one of his dogs in his dogpack do a submissive dog down just by pointing at it. Is it really possible to get to that point or is that just Hollywood?

All that said, I don't ever need to force my dog into that position. I ask for it. I have never seen Cesar's show, but I make a hand like a gun, and the dog drops to layin on his side. Add "bang bang" for full effect

I make this a fun trick most of the time, I usually reward it with food or a release and then toy toss. (He could care less about belly rubs or this might make a good reward) If I need him to do it in the vets office (he hates) or to trim his nails, he knows what I mean him to do and obliges me. I have also earned his trust.

Cheers,

Wow this is great information. My deaf PB is very dominant and while she recognizes me as pack leader is is always testing it. My trainer felt that this would be a tool to enforce who is in charge so we do it daily.

Also she is agressive to my other dog so I crate and rotate. The trainer recommended having the crates next to each other which has overall gone very well. On the two times she charged the kennel with the other dog in it I lifted her up with the dominant dog collar and put her into a submissive dog down. (I also had the other dog lay down using voice commands in the crate). While she did it I still haven't seen her "let go" of the tension and relax and trust that she will be safe. This could be due to her deafness that she will not trust as easily or to other factors I'm not sure what.

I like the idea of actually training the dog to do it in positive settings. I'm not sure about using treats because it seems that this is a moment of establishing leadership. After the down I've been directing her to a task that she can then earn treats for. Any thoughts? I'm totally new at this so any criticism is welcome as well : )

 Quote:

On the two times she charged the kennel with the other dog in it I lifted her up with the dominant dog collar and put her into a submissive dog down. (I also had the other dog lay down using voice commands in the crate). While she did it I still haven't seen her "let go" of the tension and relax and trust that she will be safe.

IMHO she is not safe. She has just been corrected and in her mind is still being corrected. You are scarry to her right now.

If you are using a submissive down as a punishment and are forcably putting the dog in this position, is this really just an alpha role? Would this be a conflict with doing this daily as a "leadership role exersise?"

I guess I origionally anwered this post mostly because you said you saw Cesar pointing to a dog and it went into a submissive down.

 Quote:

My deaf PB is very dominant and while she recognizes me as pack leader is is always testing it. My trainer felt that this would be a tool to enforce who is in charge so we do it daily.

I actually have no experience forcing a dog to submitt to a down against its will, for the reason of being the pack leader. I figure if I tell the dog to do it and it does, I am the leader and the dog respects.

Then I can condition the dog to the fact that being in this position is not life threatning and you can trust that your pack will not hurt you in this position. My dog is more on the skittish/touch sensitive side so this fits my needs. I see it more as a trust building exersise, not a pack leadership exersise in my house. Also like mentioned before, it is a neccesaary position for examinations ....

 Quote:

I'm not sure about using treats because it seems that this is a moment of establishing leadership. After the down I've been directing her to a task that she can then earn treats for.

I also would not use treats or train a "punishment". It would not be very punihsing then! If you are using the submissive down as a punishment, don't expect the dog to like it. If you want the dog to relax in that position don't use it as a punishment.


I don't know too much about dealing with really dominant dogs(I have never seen Ed's DVD), but I hope your deaf PB is truely dominant and not fear aggressive. I would imagine being deaf might be a bit scary, one of your senses being missing might put a dog "on guard" so to speak.


I just want to say how amazing I think you are for working with this dog that already has a couple strikes against it. I am sure it is super rewarding some days, and super heartbreaking other days. You can tell you really care for these dogs.

Cheers

Okay

I also think it is important to know how you are going about this daily leadership exersise. Do you put the dog down from standing? Do you get the dog to down and then role then push them onto their side? Do you say anything to the dog (in your case give the dog any cue) so it knows what is coming?

I realised I really have no business answereing when I am not even sure what you are doing.

You have me curious now and I want to try what you are doing with my dog

"I'm not sure about using treats because it seems that this is a moment of establishing leadership"

You may be correct, I am not a professional dog trainer but baptism by fire is one heck of a motivator.

I believe leadership is established in ground work and everyday living with a dog. For my scenario, submission practices are purely to control and possibly prevent aggression. I use the treats as a reward to get his mind off of the fact that he hates being submissive and he'll complete the submission exercise with a bit more enthusiasm.

I'm sure there are dogs who would lay on their side even for a total stranger but mine, and I just now did it to see what would happen, he hates to be commanded into a submissive posture. By the way, he did lay on his side but grumbled while doing it.

Although any sign of aggression should be corrected, if I correct him in this exercise he will trust me less next time. For us this is not a fully worked out issue so in the interest of showing him I am not trying to bully him, I continue with what I am doing (rubbing ears, petting fur etc., while he grumbles and he stops and does not start again. Granted a nip is possible but he has never done so when I am not aggressive towards him. And that's not even an all inclusive tactic. It really, really depends on a variety of factors that determine whether I correct him or not.

Why can't we all just get along?

Eric, you have the patience of a saint! Bruno is lucky to have you! BTW - it may be unconventional, but I think you're doing the right thing. There are only so many corrections a dog can recieve in its life - save yours for when you really need them!

Kelly - yes, you can get a submissive down through body language.

I would not ask for the relaxed down to avoid aggression or to regain "control" after aggression. I would ask for attention/eye contact. It ties in with the other training you are doing now so it would be much more effective. Plus, you are her ears and it may help her to relax to see you. If my dogs hears a noise and tenses up, I go check it out. If the dogs atays relaxed I ignore it. They are my ears. You can do the same for Sadie if she will look at you.

Sadie is probably more sensitive to your body language that you can imagine, so be very careful to remain a "calm, assertive pack leader."