Monday I switched to raw. Feeding chicken backs but getting ready to add muscle meat in the form of beef hearts. The hearts will not be in until today. Started adding plain, unsweetened yogurt with live cultures in it yesterday for my female and this morning for my male. My male tried to have a bowel movement this morning and only had a very small movement, maybe a tablespoon. He also whimpered a little and turned around to see his rear and then sat down and started licking it. Last night he played. This morning he romped around with my female for a little while and ate his first feed well. I do not think he has had a good bowel movement since Monday but not sure, he was out for a little while unattended. Should I be concerned? Second guessing raw this morning. Need help from some experienced raw feeders. Thanks in advance.

Chuck

Hi Chuck,

Sounds like you might be feeding too much bone content in the diet.

I'm a raw feeder also and have been doing a lot of reading lately and came across a good reminder article about the importance of Balance in the diet.

http://www.landywoods.co.uk/barf_diets.html

There are many other places with info of raw diets so don't give up just yet, I know people who have few raw for many years and had very nice results with it. It's just about getting it right and being confident in what your doing.

If you would like any more articles, PM me and I'll send you what I have. Also lots of good books out there by people like Tom Lonsdale and Ian Billingshurst.

Cheers

John

Hi Chuck,

I agree with John - and great link by the way! - raw feeding is all about BALANCE, not just the rmbs. Sounds like you just need to start working in more muscle meat. There are some great articles and threads here dealing with the reccommended percentages of rmbs vs. muscle meat vs. organ meat vs. veggies vs. suppliments, etc. Though really, systematic trial and error can get you through a lot of issues as well.

Don't give up yet! We've been feeding raw for a year and a half now and we're STILL tinkering with ratios and ingredients to really optimize the meals. The nice thing is that, by feeding raw, you HAVE that control to play around and see what works best for your dog.

Good luck, and keep asking questions - there's a wealth of knowledge and support here.

~Natalya

And meanwhile I would give just muscle meat for at least one meal, with vegetables and olive oil or other cooking oil. And extra water, baited if necessary.

The water softens up the stool, as does the oil (much safer than mineral oil, and works the same way), and the oil also lubricates.


JMO.

I agree with Connie's post to help with easing things if there's a problem.

I've been feeding raw for over 7 yrs. I was fortunate that the 2 dogs I started on it made the switch without incident in just a few days. Not all dogs will make the change that easily. You don't say what you were feeding before, but, yeah, the decrease in poop output can be startling and a little disconcerting at first. Then you realize how much filler crap we've been feeding them.

When I first started, this forum was up and running and there wasn't as much info readily available. For months, I fed nothing but chicken backs and quarters and I don't think the dog suffered from any terrible imbalance. He still looked, acted and was healthier than he'd ever been. Obviously, I wouldn't do or suggest that same approach now. I do believe balance over the long term is desirable, but I don't fret over daily diets. I suggest those starting out not get too hung up in that issue when you're just beginning.

I know there may be books by more accomplished authors, but my favorite for the newbie is MacDonald's "Raw Dog Food, Make It Easy for You and Your Dog" (emphasis added) available here. It's a small book that advocates a simple, practical approach to raw feeding. At this point, you need something like that more than the minute details of adding supplementation, variety, etc. There's plenty of time to adjust the diet as you move along and you and the dog are more comfortable with it. I still tinker with what I feed, trying to deal with some specific health issues.

JMO

Mike

Thanks for the info. I got the muscle meat today (beef hearts) and I gave that along with some veggies I put through the blender and olive oil for the second feeding. Neither my male or female liked the veggie "glop" very well and only ate about haIf of it. I gave them each 2 ounces. I was feeding chicken soup before the switch so they were on a good kibble. I am hoping the raw helps with shedding. I have read two books, Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats and another book by an author named MacDonald (can't remember title). I was only feeding chicken backs to start because I thought adding one thing at a time was best. Obviously a bad thought. Thanks again for the info everyone and I'll be checking out that book Mike.

Chuck

Oh, by the way I am getting chicken backs and beef hearts for .39 lb. Just curious if that was a good price. I thought it was but just making sure.

 Quote: chuck moore

I was only feeding chicken backs to start because I thought adding one thing at a time was best. Obviously a bad thought. Thanks again for the info everyone and I'll be checking out that book Mike.

Chuck

Oh, by the way I am getting chicken backs and beef hearts for .39 lb. Just curious if that was a good price. I thought it was but just making sure.

No, it wasn't a bad thought. I've used especially meaty backs with no added muscle meat before. You'll get a good feel as you go along for what looks too bony and what doesn't. And lots of dogs would tool along just fine on even less-meaty backs. But one of mine does just like yours, letting me know if the bone content needs to be adjusted. Mostly, I think it's way more common for them *not* to be so sensitive, so it might be just because it's still new to your guy's system.

That's a great price.


P.S. Are you sure the book you read wasn't the one Mike Armstrong recommended?

Chuck, try putting salmon oil on the veggie glop (don't forget the vitamin E capsule too), or slightly mixing the glop with some plain unsweetened yogurt (more like folding the yogurt into the veggies). It will help the taste. You should be feeding the salmon oil anyway so might as well try that.

Thought I would mention the vitamin E dose - I used to give a 200 IU capsule, now my dog is about 80 lbs so I give a 400 IU capsule. Connie can probably set you straight on the dose (and me too if I'm wrong with this dose).

The book I read is the one Mike recommended. My brain was in neutral. This morning my male had another bowel movement. Two small, hard balls about the size of a large marble. I broke them up with a stick and they were very dry, almost like powder he reacted the same way this morning as he did yesterday but yelped 3-4 times. My plan is to get the salmon oil and add it to only muscle meat meals for today. I do have some vitamin E. My male is 70-72lbs so I would like to know if 400 IU dose is ok? Also should I continue with the veggie glop daily until this problem is solved? I was planning on feeding it to them twice a week but wondering if I should feed more until this constipation clears up. Also, at what point would a vet need to be involved? I know my vet will be very opposed to raw feeding and don't feel like hearing the "this is why raw is bad" story but want to do what is best for my dog. I really appreciate everyones time and help.

Thanks,
Chuck

I really can't say enough about adding some PURE canned pumpkin (NOT pumpkin pie filling) to your next few meals. It will help with the constipation, and may help to ensure that the pendulum does not swing in the opposite direction if you know what I mean .

As far as going to the vet, it is hard for folks on line to make that call for you.

I go with, is the dog feeling and acting normally? Is the dog's appitite good, is there any vomitting? Some food coming out the back end?

If the above is good you should be okay to try and feed the muscle meat, oil and pumkin meal and see what happens.

The types of poo you discribe are not uncommon for high bone meals. From your description, it does sound as though the bone is being well digested, the stool is just a little firmer than your dog would like

Use your best judgement on the vet and in the mean time if possible start shopping around for a vet that is at least open minded about a well thought out raw diet. There are some out there!