A question for those of you that enjoy competing in protection trials....
Do you feel that more should be done with in the sport to standardize acceptable behavior of the dogs during protection trails and to penalize unacceptable behavior??

I know that before a dog can compete in the higher levels of Schutzhund it must first pass the B, which is a temperament test. If the dog fails the B it cannot go on to compete in schutzhund. I think the sport of schutzhund is way ahead of the protection dog sport in this respect.

I feel that to increase public credibilty (about protection trained dogs) we must have higher expectations and standards of what is acceptable behavior for these dogs during public trials.

I have personally seen protection trained dogs at competitions that will deliberately try to bite their owners on the field...and receive no penalty for this behavior.....I feel that any dog that deliberately tries to bite its owner should be disqualified.

What do the rest of you think? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

In NAPD they started to require that the dogs pass a trial at greater than 70% of their score in both protection and obedience on lead prior to allowing the dog to compete off lead. This was put in place because of the number of uncontroled dogs off lead in trials.

I think it is a good idea as a test for the dog, since there is always a chance that the dog will "blow-up" on you in a new situation.

Richard,
Is there any behavior that is listed as grounds for disqualification of the dog during an NAPD trial?

I think the idea of having to compete first on lead before going to the off lead level is a good idea.....but even this is not fool proof...we all know of dogs that behave very well when the leash is on and can be out of control when the leash is off.

What if the dog got away from the handler during the on lead portion and then ran around the field out of control trying to bite the first passive and unprotected person in its path....would the dog be disqualified for this behavior or at the least....would the handler receive a significant enough deduction in points to reduce the overall points to below a 70? If not, would the dog then be able to move on to the off lead portion of the trial after this out of control behavior??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Paula,

The entire trial is on lead, with the 70 required in both obedience and protection to advance to off lead in the next trial.

Obedience is always performed first, if the dog D. Q.'s in obedience it is barred from competing in protection. To a certain extent the attitude of the competitors plays an important part. I have seen dogs pulled from the trial by the handler for poor performance in obedience or in a protection scenario. Having watched some video tape on some old trials there were some dogs that should have been pulled either by the judges or by the handler. The ultimate responsibility for the dog is on the handler, as handlers we need to realisticaly evaluate or dogs and pull them if they don't belong. Even if the dog is just having a bad day.

With NAPD they also have "protectors" for the crowd and the judges. These or helpers with sleeves placed unobtrusively in case a dog fails to respond to their handlers.

The thing I think is most important is the attitude of the handlers. They know when the dog shouldn't be there and have an obligation to pull thier own dog.

I know Paula's example of an uncontrolled dog dashing all over the field and biting a passive person is not fiction but an actual occurrance at a trial she attended. Her example of a dog biting its owner is also actual and this dog, the same dog I believe who ran and bit, scored quite well in this protection competition. I train with Paula and extreme control in our dogs is the goal of our training in personal protection. We have certain internal club "rules" that a dog has to have good obedience to start progressing through protection training as we view it as advanced obedience work.

We do the same thing with obedience for the most part. The only exception is the puppies that are comming around for prey work.

Personaly I have certain criteria I require before I start serious protection work. The dog must do complete off lead obedience, hold a 20 min out of sight stay, and have all dominance issues resolved. The last thing I want to do is teach a dog with dominance issues to be more effective in taking me on.

It would be embarrassing to me to take a dog on to the field that was not adequately obedience trained. Unfortunately a lot of PPD people don't have the same attitude. Many will accept a dog that is regularly defiant and see that as just increased drive to do bite work. Frequently these dogs wouldn't out if their life depended on it. This ends up being one of the things I don't understand about the idea of not training obedience until the dog is 1 year or older.

I start my puppy obedience the day the pup comes home. I don't use anything but positive reinforcement and very short lessons. Usually buy the time the pup is 6 months old the obedience work is done. The stays aren't long enough because the pup doesn't have a long enough attention span. My dogs will do a 1 hr group obedience class with around 50 dogs in it off lead.

Not enough people concentrate on obedience enough. I firmly believe that this level of obedience is part of why I never have a problem with teaching out to my dogs. I don't think I have ever needed to make a correction to teach out, the dogs just do it for some reason. I do use the command a little different than most. I use it as a "stop what you are doing" rather than just a "stop biting" command. As a result of this the dogs already know the command and just do it when commanded.

Out is, in my opinion the most important command we have. I have heard some top competitors say that they only want the dog to out 70% of the time. These dogs will take a zero on call offs in about 1 out of 4 trials they compete in. Since my dogs live in the house and go any place I can take them I believe that out must be 100%.

Richard,
We also have very strict rules about obedience at our club. As Curtisoms said it seems to be an "internal rule" but for those of us that train there regularly we know that obedience in protection trained dogs is no laughing matter...about a year ago our trainer noticed during the group obedience lessons that my dog totally ignored two of my recall commands......the entire class was momentarily put "on hold" as I got a swift a$$ chewing and was informed that no further bite work with my dog would happen until I had my dog under control. I spent the next several months paying "the extreme penance" which consisted of doing recalls across the field as bite work was going on...over and over....LOL...I almost quit...but I didn't...and now I feel that my relationship with and confidence in my dog has dramatically improved because of it.

BTW..occasionally I get to Arizona....I would love to stop by your club and watch a training session....we also have many protection trained dogs at our club off leash during the group sessions which includes a socialization time.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I have seen dogs run off the field during a B trial and still pass. It's a shame. The problem is a judge most of the time lives at the homes of the competitors and they become biased. I would hate to come home to a house of someone I just failed.