Isolated Incident? Need guidance fast!
#145543 - 06/20/2007 03:10 PM |
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My best friend has a 6 year old female, spayed rescue dog. They say she is a Catahoula Leopard Dog, looks like a shorter haired Australian Shepherd to me. She has been with the family for 4 years. She has always been intolerant of strange dogs. When visiting me, Cookie and my female beagle mix were introduced on a leash. There was circling and yelping, we didn't do that again. She had a puppy in the house for a few months and that didn't work out, Cookie got sick of the pup jumping around and bit it, requiring stitches to the ear. Since then they found a submissive male dog who has fit into the pack well, and Cookie is tolerating neighborhood dogs well on walks. She has never shown aggression toward a human other than my friend's ex-husband who came in the house very late one night and Cookie wouldn't let him in the house. He's a Marine and often gone so she was unsure who he was. Fast forward...
My friend took Cookie to the park where our children were having T-ball practice. Cookie was asleep at her feet. All Hades breaks loose and my friend finds to her horror that a little girl, 2 years old, crawled up to Cookie. Cookie evidently was startled and bit the child on the face, requiring stitches. Her kids are 6 and 8 and her neighborhood is full of children.
Is it possible that this was an isolated incident? Do dogs ever inflict facial bites having never shown aggression toward a child? Seriously, our kids use this dog as a pillow. She's a real sweetheart. Is she a bad dog? Is she endangering her children or the neighborhood by having a dog who has bitten a child?
Please help us. She is sick with guilt and sick at the thought of what may have to be done.
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Re: Isolated Incident? Need guidance fast!
[Re: Tess Sanders ]
#145551 - 06/20/2007 03:34 PM |
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Yeech. Prepare yourself Tess, for some brutally honest answers from this board!
Do dogs ever inflict facial bites having never shown aggression toward a child?
Is it possible that this was an isolated incident?
Here's the thing...it BETTER be an isolated incident. The dog, from this moment on has to be treated as a dog that can and will and HAS bitten children.
Personally, I believe that signs are there BEFORE a dog bites, in most cases. The owners just don't always know what to look for. So as bad as the situation can be, the owner may honestly have thought the dog was fine.
However, the owner no longer has the luxury or excuse of ignorance. The dog must be treated as an aggressive dog with all the responsibilities that go along with having one.
I can appreciate that she feels horrible. I hate kicking people when they're down. But that's a serious situation that must be dealt with. This dog should not, IMO, be considered trustworthy anymore.
The fact that the dog was startled is an excuse only to a point. It points to a dog that bites first and asks questions later and that means the dog must be supervised and away from children...who are by nature unpredictable.
I'm sorry to sound so harsh, but this is something I feel strongly about. I do feel bad for your friend, and I feel worse for the baby. Your friend has to face some hard truths about her dog.
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Re: Isolated Incident? Need guidance fast!
[Re: Amber Morgan ]
#145556 - 06/20/2007 03:46 PM |
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Well said Amber. I agree with you.
Until The Tale of the Lioness is told, the Story will Always Glorfy the Hunter |
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Re: Isolated Incident? Need guidance fast!
[Re: Tess Sanders ]
#145572 - 06/20/2007 05:53 PM |
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So what do you do? There is no option of keeping her away from children, as there are 2 in the home and friends over all of the time. I guess she could stay crated unless she is supervised but for crying out loud she was inches away from the dog when this happened. So supervision can't be the answer. You can't ask a dog to live in a crate 24 hours a day. Noone will take a biting dog... should she be put down?
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Re: Isolated Incident? Need guidance fast!
[Re: Tess Sanders ]
#145574 - 06/20/2007 06:01 PM |
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So what do you do? There is no option of keeping her away from children, as there are 2 in the home and friends over all of the time. I guess she could stay crated unless she is supervised but for crying out loud she was inches away from the dog when this happened. So supervision can't be the answer. You can't ask a dog to live in a crate 24 hours a day. Noone will take a biting dog... should she be put down?
Yes actually, supervision and proper handling is the answer. Keeping the dog away form children unless supervised is going to HAVE to be an option.
Can they put up a kennel run for the dog?
Research this site and read Ed's articles on dealing with aggressive dogs.
I do not think the dog needs to be put down, but I think stronger leadership or a home where the people are experienced at dealing with these issues may be in order.
Until The Tale of the Lioness is told, the Story will Always Glorfy the Hunter |
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Re: Isolated Incident? Need guidance fast!
[Re: Carol Boche ]
#145580 - 06/20/2007 06:28 PM |
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Tess, the other part of this situation is your friends kids. Are they mature enough at they're young age to be taught how to live with this dog? For me personally it's not a big deal to keep my dog kenneled when other kids are over but with your own kids a lot depends on how well they listen to the rules about how to treat the dog. Direct your friend to the articles here about crate training and " nothing in life is free" as a start.
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Re: Isolated Incident? Need guidance fast!
[Re: Tess Sanders ]
#145583 - 06/20/2007 06:40 PM |
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So what do you do?... No one will take a biting dog... should she be put down?
I'm sorry but I find statements like this one really infuriating. I can sympathize through most of this story, but ending with that question changes everything. There was a question posted a few weeks ago: "What do you say when people ask if your dog bites?". The honest answer: "All dogs bite."
Not all dogs WILL end up biting, but they all CAN - the key to ensuring that any given dog doesn't bite unneccessarily (which would mean hopefully never, except under the most dire circumstances), lies completely with the proper education, handling and responsibility of the owner. It doesn't sound like much has changed with this dog in the 4 years the owner has had her, so, as Amber suggested, whatever issues she has have most likely been there all along. The fact that an accident happened only now just means you've been lucky. It also means that she's probably not a "bad" dog at all - but she does have some issues that will need to be addressed.
Does she need to be put down?? IMO - NO. And it makes me sad to see this as a knee jerk first response to being told you have an aggressive dog. If your friend doesn't feel up to the task of handling her in the way that a potentially dangerous dog needs to be handled (and it can be done), find someone who is, probably someone without kids (and yes, there are people out there who will take a dog like this).
~Natalya
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Re: Isolated Incident? Need guidance fast!
[Re: Natalya Zahn ]
#145588 - 06/20/2007 08:14 PM |
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I'm sorry but I find statements like this one really infuriating.
And it makes me sad to see this as a knee jerk first response to being told you have an aggressive dog.
~Natalya
Natalya, I completely understand where you're coming from. But I'm hoping that the OP's statement wasn't just a throw-in-the-towel-and-give-up sort of comment.
I think that some people honestly think that if they kept an aggressive dog that they're doing a bad thing...that putting a dog down when it's aggressive is the right thing to do, even though it really hard for them to do it.
Many people think there are only two options...allow the dog to continue to attack OR euthanize it. Tess, there is another option...and that is training...mostly for the OWNER!
Owning aggressive dogs require !!constant attention!! You screw up one time and guess what, babies get bitten. There is no further margin for error.
The problem with the owner keeping the dog, as I see it, is that it sounds like the dog has long periods when he's fine. It would be all too easy for the owner to get lulled into a false sense of security. Despite months or even years of model behavior...this dog has demonstrated what he will do under certain circumstances. There can be no relaxing of the guard.
This is a horrible situation for all involved. The owner needs to think REALLY hard about whether or not she can handle this very big responsibility, and be CLEAR about what that responsibility is. That responsibility is harder to handle when the household is full of kids that can divert the owner's attention.
Also, these kids that currently live with the dog are going to have to be dilligent as well. Life with the dog cannot go on as usual. They are used to using the dog as a pillow you said? Are they willing to give that up? Are they willing to keep the dog kenneled like they need to? Will they feel sorry for the dog and let him out..."just this once?" Just this once turns into "well as long as it's only family" which turns into "well as long as the dog knows the people" which turns into "well as long as she's on a leash." And then we're right back where we started from.
I ask the same thing Steve did, "Are they mature enough...to be taught how to live with this dog?" And what about their friends that come over for sleep-overs and so on. And this is for the lifetime of the dog.
Also, I think it's very likely that the dog exhibited some symptoms that perhaps the owner didn't see. So if the owner chooses to keep the dog, she's going to have to do A LOT of book-cracking and A LOT of learning and training.
Perhaps giving the dog to a child-free home, with an experienced owner, is an option. My recommendation, as hard as it would be, is to give up the dog to a more suitable household. If she chooses to keep that dog...she had better be ready to accept how much goes into that responsibility.
Because there are NO second chances. None, zero, zilch. If my child was bitten by a dog that had previously bitten a child...there aren't words for how unforgiving I would be.
Have the dog evaluated by a quality behaviorist, if she can find one. Or two or three. Don't waste time...do it now.
***And by the way, the mother that allowed her baby to crawl over to a strange dog is an idiot, flat out. She shares much of the blame, IMO.***
Carbon |
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Re: Isolated Incident? Need guidance fast!
[Re: Amber Morgan ]
#145590 - 06/20/2007 08:27 PM |
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I'm not chiming in as an expert or offering any advice. I just wanted to share that my sister's 3 year old, sweeter than pie, dog who we would have never known had an ounce of aggression bit my 13 year old niece in the nose one day when my niece attempted to pick the dog up out of a dead sleep. None of us would have ever expected it. My sisters situation however may have been due to a health issue with the dog since she passed away about one month after this happened. We assume that either the dog was startled or in pain causing her to snap.
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Re: Isolated Incident? Need guidance fast!
[Re: Natalya Zahn ]
#145592 - 06/20/2007 08:34 PM |
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This may be an unpopular answer....but if someone snuck up on me when I was sleeping and "all hades was breaking loose", I might bite too. Absolutely supervision is the answer, and training. Not just for the dog, but for the kids as well. I don't care what's going on, I NEVER would have let my daughter get in a dog's face, or use him/her as a pillow or any of that type of behaviour. Is the child your dog-owner friend's child, Tess? Or someone else's? I feel like the parent of the child is as responsible for what happend as the dog-owner, and I'm a parent.
She has never shown aggression toward a human other than my friend's ex-husband who came in the house very late one night and Cookie wouldn't let him in the house.
Given this dog's relatively kid-safe history (NO dog is 100% so there should always be respect), I would work on the training and supervision angle before resorting to the death-sentence for what sounds to me like a defensive reaction. Sorry if I'm coming across as harsh but it's the kind of thing I've seen a little too often lately. Anyway, just another opinion. I hope everything works out.
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