I own a 2 yr old GS, and a friend of mine a 4 yr old one, both males. We go on walks on occasion and mine, Malik, usually teases the other, Louie, a lot for play. Louie being older, doesn't seem to care much for it. They seem to get along with a little growling, a little play and have gotten into small "arguments" that break off easily... Until 2 days ago, over a stick, they both really went for it, and my dog wound up at the vet with stitches on his left leg, a drain, etc, a $350 ordeal and a 10 day leash restriction to heal.

Clearly, I'm not going to have those 2 together on walks again. However, my dog is generally good with other ones, doesn't start fights, but won't back off either. So I took him on a couple of very short walks since his surgery, and he got pretty snarly at other dogs. I don't know what the psychological consequences are for him after this fight, and if there is anything I should be aware of, do, not do, etc.
Any advice is highly appreciated.

 Quote: aude-noelle nevius

I own a 2 yr old GS, and a friend of mine a 4 yr old one, both males. We go on walks on occasion and mine, Malik, usually teases the other, Louie, a lot for play. Louie being older, doesn't seem to care much for it. They seem to get along with a little growling, a little play and have gotten into small "arguments" that break off easily... Until 2 days ago, over a stick, they both really went for it, and my dog wound up at the vet with stitches on his left leg, a drain, etc, a $350 ordeal and a 10 day leash restriction to heal.

Clearly, I'm not going to have those 2 together on walks again. However, my dog is generally good with other ones, doesn't start fights, but won't back off either. So I took him on a couple of very short walks since his surgery, and he got pretty snarly at other dogs. I don't know what the psychological consequences are for him after this fight, and if there is anything I should be aware of, do, not do, etc.
Any advice is highly appreciated.

Wow. I don't want to seem harsh or judgmental, but I do want to point out that you are your dog's pack leader (which also means protector) and you allowed this. I guess you had two dogs off-lead who had already shown that they didn't get along.

Maybe I'm reading the situation wrong.... that's what it looks like.

Anyway, more info is needed: On the recent walks when your injured dog got snarly with other dogs ... he was on his leash? What did he do and what did you do? Did he stop and posture, or snarl on his way by, or what?

And what does "doesn't start fights but won't back off" mean? Where do these fights happen? Are you taking him to off-lead dog parks?

Edited by Connie Sutherland (06/28/2007 11:22 AM)
Edit reason: last question added

No worries about being harsh, I am open for criticism, it's only like this I'll learn more. And I do feel bad that I allowed this, didn't use my brain... I probably should have put an end to those walks fast.
Answers: Yes, my dog is on leash now as he's injured. We passed a dog on leash too, I told mine to heel, and he insisted on stopping to smell the other one, and eventually got snarly, and I yanked him off with a NO. I think I should simply not allow him to sniff, but then I've been told he needs to socialize tons after his fight, so I'm confused as far as what to do.
What I mean by "doesn't start fights but won't back off" means that he seems to like other dogs overall, so he migh either act aloof, or friendly, but if he gets attacked (as by his "pal"), he will fight back, which has only happened a couple of times.
On our previous walks (before injury), he was free to go, but I always either put him on a lead when other dogs are coming near, or I make sure I can correct him (has an e-collar I'm trained well to use), so that I can control him, and still ask him to heel.

 Quote: aude-noelle nevius

... Answers: Yes, my dog is on leash now as he's injured. We passed a dog on leash too, I told mine to heel, and he insisted on stopping to smell the other one, and eventually got snarly, and I yanked him off with a NO. I think I should simply not allow him to sniff, but then I've been told he needs to socialize tons after his fight, so I'm confused as far as what to do. ... What I mean by "doesn't start fights but won't back off" means that he seems to like other dogs overall, so he migh either act aloof, or friendly, but if he gets attacked (as by his "pal"), he will fight back, which has only happened a couple of times.
On our previous walks (before injury), he was free to go, but I always either put him on a lead when other dogs are coming near, or I make sure I can correct him (has an e-collar I'm trained well to use), so that I can control him, and still ask him to heel.

I would not allow him to stop and sniff. I would walk right on by, calmly and confidently, with the handler calling the shots.

To me, socializing means lots of experiences and lots of new stuff, new places, new sounds and sights, but not particularly getting up-close and personal with strange dogs.

To me, it means a goal of ignoring strange dogs, walking right past, neither getting excited nor reacting with fear or aggression.

I also think that he needs NOT to be attacked. That's your job, not his job to defend himself.

JMO.

I'd also have him on lead unless you have a great recall *and* there are no strange dogs around.

And I'd definitely stay away from off-lead dog parks.

All JMO. I want my dogs to ignore strange dogs. I want it to be up to me to protect my dogs.

P.S. The dog doesn't "insist." That's not the dog's role.

I agree with you, but strange dogs is vague. It's at times hard to tell at once, on the spur of the moment. Would the "pal" who bit be considered strange? He was at the most aloof, and he wound up hurting my dog.
And yes, I am aware enough that it's my job to protect me, and I wasn't up to it. But really, how do I rebuild his confidence? He seems weary of any other dogs, even the neighbors'dogs, who are harmless as can be! Just be acting confident myself and leading the way? I just don't know if he's really been affected psychologically and don't want to find out a bad way again.

A "strange dog" is ANY DOG that is not part of your family pack. Your PACK is You, your significant other (if any), your children (if any) and any other dogs that live in your home. THAT'S IT. If a dog does not live in your home with you, it is not a pack member and does not need to be socializing with your dog.

My dogs play amongst themselves...they do not play with the neighbor's dog or my brother's dog. Those dogs are NOT MY PACK and are to be considered strange.

Letting strange dogs meet on leash is a bad idea anyway. A threatened dog has two options FIGHT or FLIGHT. When you had him on a leash you took away the FLIGHT option so to protect himself when he felt threatened he felt he had to FIGHT. Even the sweetest dog in the world can get snarly if another dog approaches it while on lead.

Don't allow your dog to mix, mingle, sniff, snarl, posture, or play with other people's dogs any more (especially males, but some dog-aggro females can be just as quick to attack a male too!) -- Once a young dog has been jumped & hurt by another K9, it will usually display defense-aggro for some time (often forever)...

Go to the "Articles" section of this website for reading up on Dominance & Aggression issues between dogs -- and how to manage these behaviors without further incidents <:-)

 Quote: kelly at leerburg

A "strange dog" is ANY DOG that is not part of your family pack. Your PACK is You, your significant other (if any), your children (if any) and any other dogs that live in your home. THAT'S IT. If a dog does not live in your home with you, it is not a pack member and does not need to be socializing with your dog.

My dogs play amongst themselves...they do not play with the neighbor's dog or my brother's dog. Those dogs are NOT MY PACK and are to be considered strange.

Letting strange dogs meet on leash is a bad idea anyway. A threatened dog has two options FIGHT or FLIGHT. When you had him on a leash you took away the FLIGHT option so to protect himself when he felt threatened he felt he had to FIGHT. Even the sweetest dog in the world can get snarly if another dog approaches it while on lead.

I have to say that I agree 100% with Kelly. Maybe it sounds severe, but it's the way I handle my pack too.

And to take it further, the on-lead intros is expanded to include off-lead intros too.

I just want my dogs to ignore other (strange) dogs.

There are several dogs in our club who have known each other for years, and these dogs are the one exception to the "outside the pack" rule. But if these "friend dogs" did not exist, or if they were at all hostile to each other and/or my dogs, then I would have no problem with my dogs having no "friends" outside our pack.

JMO.

All right, I can see my HB and I have made mistakes but there are mixed messages out there in the world about socializing your dog. We've been fairly good (not enough obviously) being pack leaders, but always with the idea that it's good for him to "play" with friend dogs. For instance, he regularly plays with a female Vishla who is half his size and they've always gotten along GREAT. So should this playmate be ruled out as well ? I'm now concerned he could hurt her out of mistrust.
We are going to have to reinforce our leading skills. My HB is better than me and tells me I'm too soft, so I have a little work to do there.
Thanks for all this info, I will read the articles too.