I haven't had a chance to keep up with the posts in this section recently, but thought that this info may be of use:

"Humane Grade" labelling - a marketing ploy, in the ingredients listing of any animal feed, if a specific meat source is listed, e.g. chicken or beef it was meat from a USDA inspected slaughter facility and approved for sale to humans. Any ingredient listed as a byproduct or a meal (chicken meal, fish meal, etc.) would not be considered from a meat source that would have been approved for sale to humans. The "human grade" foods I've seen mentioned on this board, Wellness, Innova, etc. all contain products that would not be suitable for human consumption.

The statement, "Dogs don't need grains" - an exceptionally complex matter that has been greatly simplified. From a standpoint of energy and nutrients for the Dog, grains are not needed, however, a great deal of research has been conducted on the effects of resistant starches and fibers on the flora of the colon, and thereby on the health of the animal.

Feeding of enzyme supplements. Any fat or protein degrading enzymes are dangerous to feed to animals, unless they have been treated in a manner as to prevent their activity untill they are in areas of the G.I. tract where they are normally present. Even in that case,the addition of additional enzyme can cause severe problems for the animal.

Bacteria and parasites in/on meat, is absolutely a concern for dogs. They are more tolerant to many of the strains that cause illness in people, but they are in no way immune to these threats.

I can provide a better vitamin and mineral balance to my dog by feeding an all natural (and varied) raw diet. A delusion. Most people cannot do this for themselves. Greater than 60% of the U.S. population is either anemic or iron deficient, and that is with iron supplementation to just about every process grain product we eat (cereals, breads, snack cakes, etc.) Not to mention the number of children in this country that are zinc deficient. To think that in your home you can make an optimal diet for your dog is naive at best.

I hope this did not come off as inflamatory, but it has been a very long week for me so far, and I think my secretary switched the coffee to decaf.

Chad

Interesting Chad!
So where did you get this info and what do YOU feed your dogs?
Sorry if this has been an ongoing discussion, I have not been following, so this is not a flame, I really would like to know. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Erin

Yes Chad, what do you feed your own dogs??

You seem to (now and in the past) be very anti-homemade diets for dogs.

I will continue to do what works for me and my crew here and encourage everyone else to do the same but just curious............

Chad - I believe chicken meal is just chicken that is cooked to remove water and fat, I think it takes 5 lbs. of fresh chicken meat to make 1 lb. of chicken meal. Splitting hairs but I don't see it as too different from "mechanically separated meat" that is human grade and eaten by humans. Menhaden fish meal I won't go near anything with that in it - more for the ethoxyquin tho. Innova's herring is whole fish and not fishmeal.

So would you be ok with the canned versions of Innova, California Natural and Wellness as they do not contain "meal"?

I am raising a puppy on the raw diet, following the menu plan as specified by my breeder. This is the first time I've tried a raw diet and have to admit, was unsure at the beginning. Now, there is no turning back, I can say that my pup's health and appearence is extraordinary. Sure I had a few issues, some experimentation, but that is the beauty of the raw diet, if you dog does not agree with a certain ingredient, you can eliminate it, substitute, decrease, whatever.

Chad, I commend you on stating that the majority of veterinarians have very little training in animal nutrition, which is evident by the insistence of Science Diet. Reading your previous posts, you appear to be quite learned in the subject of nutrition and what baffles me is why you seem to disagree with the natural diet. Yes, it has to be properly prepared and balanced and for people that can't manage that, then they are better off with a quality kibble. But in defense of the raw diet people that are posting on this board, the majority seem quite knowledgeable and have done their research. Silly little issues about worrying about bacteria in the house should not come into it, otherwise, we should all give up buying groceries and cooking at home.

The grain issue; it is a filler, the only way to make those little hard kibble pieces and it is cheap too! I have seen dogs eat grass, but not the seeds, dead against grain!

Chad, you have stated that you have done numerous lectures and papers on nutrition. I am intrigued, do you have any links to any of your published papers? I too have an interest in nutrition which started long ago when getting involved in fitness and weight training. Are you a nutritionist or a chemist? And knowing that you have been asked this already, what is your food of choice? Do you add anything to it? How old is your oldest dog? Forgive me if I appear a bit personal, just want some insight.

I rotate between various kibbles with my dogs, since different companies likely obtain rendered products from different sources, this reduces the chance of long term exposure to heat stable toxins. I avoid products produced by some companies that I feel promote bad science.

I am not against an all natural diet, I just think that people attribute far too much health benefits to it without realizing all of the potential problems. As the field of nutrition, particularly companion animal nutrition, evolves, we are seeing more and more non-traditional roles of dietary nutrients. Without incurring a tremendous expense, there is no way to know the nutritional composition of a made at home diet. There is also a tremendous amount of bad science that has been put out along with the concept of an all natural diet - and I am very much against bad science so that may influence my tone while discussing these diets.

The definition of any "meal" is provided in the AAFCO feed ingredient definitions. It is always a rendered product. If it was a meat fit for human consumption that was then cooked to remove water, it could still be listed as just that meat in the ingredients list. I would post the definition here, however the AAFCO publication is copyrighted and the copyright is enforced.

My information on the regulations regarding feed labeling comes from my experience working for the Food and Drug Administration.

I am more of a molecular biologist/nutritionist. I have no idea how to post links to any of my articles (my computer skills are on par with a trained chimp), but a search through Medline or Biosis with the key words Phytase and CH STAHL will bring up some of my publications.

My oldest dog was a mutt that was somewhere between 15 and 18 yrs old. When I adopted her she had already had a litter, but no other clue as to her true age. None of my purebred dogs have lived past 10.

When doing the research to decide whether to go on the raw diet or use a quality kibble, the clincher was the realization that no matter what ingredients I was going to use for the raw, it was supremely better.

Despite worrying about the hormones in beef and chicken, at least I know I am feeding beef and chicken! And fresh veggies and the supplements. This is far better instead of the 'god knows what' that goes into commercial pet foods. (rendered animals, by products, additives, preservatives, ash, moisture, ect, ect...scary stuff).

When people get away from 'carbo stuffing and sugar coated diets' and change their food for the better,an immediate positive change is felt. It has to be the same for the animals.

Chad, I would think that someone of your knowledge would reign supreme on natural diets for animals. Have you ever tried it? I bet you would be very pleased with the results.

Remember, it is not the length of a life, but the quality of life that is important.

Chad - chicken meal is not rendered per AAFCO definitions. The AAFCO definitions are not private.

The AAFCO definition, at my last reading is:

"Poultry (chicken) / poultry meal
- clean flesh and skin, with or without accompanying bone, derived from the
parts or whole carcasses of poultry, or a combination thereof, exclusive of
feathers, heads, feet, or entrails. "

I think maybe you are thinking of poultry by product meal:

"Poultry By-Product Meal - consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of
the carcass of slaughtered poultry, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs,
intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur
unavoidably in good processing practices. "

Laureen,
You're definition is incorrect, you should re-check the AAFCO feed ingredient definitions (section 9). AAFCO definitions are not private, they are copyrighted. Reproducing them, whole or in part, with out prior written consent from AAFCO, constitues an infringement of that copyright. Hence why I did not post it. Every meal definition contains the word rendered.