Hi, I'm new to this Weboard so please excuse me if I'm not in the correct forum.I have a 15 week old akita puppy, but am not sure at what age is appropiate for leash corrections.I have the Basic Obedience DVD, but noticed the gsd Ed was using was about 6 months old.I don't want to use Leash corrections too early and possibly damage the dog.Your advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Johnny

Hi Johnny (uh, Bella?)

At 15 weeks, your pup is still a baby and in general, you should try to avoid corrections and use distractions instead. Is there a particular problem you're having? Maybe we could help you come up with some solutions.

Hi, thanks for responding.I recently attended a training class where the "trainer" gave a rather hard correction to my dog when she sniffed a rock.He said the correction was warrented.I do understand the damage a rock can do to a dog if digested,but questioned the appropiate age to correct the pup.With that said,I did not return to this trainer.When i watched Ed's DVD BASIC OBEDIENCE I noticed 1 of his dogs was 6 months old.Just wanted to make sure we are on pace.We start a new class(different trainer) next week. Thanks

If you had to give a hard correction to a puppy every time they sniff a rock or something, you'd be yanking their neck all the time!

You want to work on your bond with your dog, and overcorrecting, or inappropriate corrections could harm that bond. And also, I personally don't believe in anyone else correcting your dog. A trainer's job is to teach the owners how to train their dogs themselves. Beware of trainers who do everything for you. You should have the leash almost all of the time. This is how I operate with my clients, anyway. What good is it if the dog responds to me, but then goes home with the owner and acts like he hasn't learned a thing?

Sniffing a rock hardly merrits a hard correction, IMO. Instead, why don't you take this as an opportunity to teach the dog "drop it" or "leave it." Your pup is old enough for some basic skills.
These commands can be life saving, and it's not too early to start. Done correctly, training like this will actually increase your dog's bond with you.

Have some five star treats with you (fabulous treats that the dog only gets when training, like roast beef pieces, or hot dog chunks cut into about the size of a nickel). If the dog picks up a rock in her mouth, hold your loosely closed hand out to her (so she can smell the treats) and as she drops the rock in favor of the treats, you say "drop it." Then treat and praise (don't forget the praise). Rinse and repeat until you don't have to hold your hand in front of her to get her to drop whatever she's grabbed. Eventually, she'll get to the point where you can start giving a treat occassionally, instead of every time.

But while she's learning, don't be stingy with the treats, and don't forget your timing...until she's clear on the command, you want to say the command as she's dropping it, so she associates the command with the action and the action with something positive.

Remember that for obedience training purposes, you don't want to correct a dog until she KNOWS the command solid. Corrections are only done when the dog knows what to do, and chooses not to. This pretty much excludes all 15 week old puppies!

Some dogs are pretty forgiving of unfair corrections, but in my experience, mature Akita's are generally not, so it's best to try and start out on a good foot with her.

Finally, keep coming to this board, and keep asking questions and using the search feature. You will save yourself a lot of headache and money if you do, I promise!


Can I ask where you're taking this class? Is this with an independant trainer, or at some place like Petco or Petsmart?

Also, are you Bella, or Johnny? Your username is confusing me!

Edited by Amber Morgan (08/22/2007 08:25 AM)
Edit reason: additions

Everything Amber said is spot on in my opinion. I just want to reinforce a few of the things that she said.

You can start correcting your dog at about 6 months old. This doesn't mean that you have to. You have to decide when you're comfortable with correcting.

I think you made the right choice about that trainer, if he corrected a pup that young I would have serious concerns about where his "heart is" in regards to dogs.

I think Amber's advice about working on your bond is great. These are some things that really helped me work on my bond, apart from following Ed's Groundwork:

4 months is a bit young to start formal training, in my opinion. I started motivational training with my guy at 12 weeks, by the time he was 6 months old he knew what "sit" and "down" meant (along with a slew of other funny, triggered behaviours), but if he didn't comply there was no punishment. I want to encourage you to take time in a quiet place (our spot was the floor in the dining room) to just hang out with your puppy, and teach her what a few words mean, if she shows interest in the hotdog you're holding. Also, during this time, teach her that it's fun to be excited and play, but that it's also fun to be relaxed in your presence.

At the end of our little motivational sessions we played tug for a few minutes, then I gently placed him in a down and shared quiet affection with him for five minutes. That habit has grown into something that I really enjoy: every day after work we play fetch in the backyard, then I sit in the grass (ahh...shade!) and he comes and lays next to me for 20 minutes while I decompress. Without the foundation work that we did, he'd be barking at me to throw the ball more, and my relationship with him during that time would be radically different ("shut up dog! Shut up! I will eat you!")

And that training definitely didn't have a negative effect on his obedience in the long run. It was easy to communicate when we started formal training, that the expectations were changing. I started with his prong on the dead ring and slowly upped the anty once he understood that I was expecting obedience. He is now (at 11months) easily 95% reliable on Sits and Downs when he's off the leash with no prong collar on. I've had a toddler scream and run at him to within 2 feet, and he didn't break his down. He just looked at me as if to ask "are you going to make that thing stop?" In that instance he had is collar and leash on (We were at an open air mall, training). I say all that to say this: you can do a lot before you ever correct him, and some of it has very little to do with "obeying commands" but still has a lot to do with good manners and obedience. Communication and a good relationship are the two most important elements of obedience.

Have fun with your pup! Socialize! Enjoy yourself! Give him a few more months and in that time, really work on your relationship. On showing him that you respect and love him, and that you're in charge. He'll respect you before you ever have to give him a correction.

Hi Amber,
Thanks for all your great information. This is our first puppy that we've actually decided to do formal training with. We've had dogs before, but we hope to train this Akita for therapy work. We have been doing extensive research on training and discovered that there are many, many different theories out there. We began looking for a trainer in our area and further found out that it was going to be tougher to find a good match than we thought.
We actually avoided Mr. Frawley's website because we were mistakenly under the impression that he was a tough, harsh K-9 trainer. Boy were we mistaken!! We have gleaned so much good information from this forum and his website, and we did finally find a trainer who specializes in search and rescue and tracking. He doesn't take puppies until they are at least 15 weeks old. We start with him next week. It's just that with all the different training methods out there, we want to make sure we are doing the right thing.

The incident that I was referring to in my post was a trainer that we had gone to interview and view his training facilities.He said we could only use Praise as reward,and could not pet our dog.
We realized quickly that this person was not going to be a good candidate for our dog. We have been working with her on socialization and her basic commands and she is doing wonderful. We have a flexible work schedule and are fortunate to be able to spend lots of bonding time with her.We look forward to the ob training to begin.
Thanks again for the information, I did't think anyone was going to respond.
Sorry about the confusing username issue,my husband Johnny was logged on when he wrote the post.

Thanks
Bella

Well, welcome Bella AND Johnny!

 Quote: bella smith

We actually avoided Mr. Frawley's website because we were mistakenly under the impression that he was a tough, harsh K-9 trainer. Boy were we mistaken!!

I know, I heard that too, before I came here. He *can* be tough and harsh...to people! He just has a low BS tolerance, I think. And after awhile you really start to appreciate not having to coddle people and instead getting right to the meat of the matter. Which is not to say that this board isn't friendly...quite the opposite, especially compared to other boards I've seen, with all of their virtual fist fights.

And you're right about there being a bewildering amount of different training methods out there. Some "trainers" are right out of their tree, IMO. But I think that the best methods are the ones used here--you don't intimidate your dog into submission and/or compliance, but you don't tolerate deliberate insubordination, either. It's a middle of the road approach, a language dogs understand and use themselves within a pack, and it's fair to them.

And I really do believe that Ed's experience and information is invaluable to both new and professional dog trainers. Same with this forum. A HUGE bunch of smart, experienced and forthright people on here.

Wow, am I writing an ad campaign for this board or what? Sheesh. Anyway, good luck to you both!

I had heard some pretty harsh things about Ed also. I wish the information that Mr. Frawley is willing and kind enough to share on his website was available 20- 30 years ago. By him putting out this information in this way he is showing people how compassionate and concerned he is that people find, use, and educate themselves to correctly and responsibly own a dog. I don't even know where to begin to show my gratitude, other than to provide the proper training to my clients and their dogs, and train the complete package and be willing to be open minded and flexible enough to use the appropiate methods for each dog and owner. I found out that the people that critized him were ones that were strictly stuck in their bubble and think dogs shouldn't be corrected at all, and really do not understand the theory about corrections and how to properly apply them. There is an incredible amount of of information here that is invaluable. read Ed's articles on Gournd Work, I would also recomdend his DVD 8 weeks to 8 months. Red his theories on corrections. Learn and understand the temperament of you dog. Ed also has articles on that. First and foremost learn why it important, and to properly become your dogs pack leader. Get on the Board here and ask Questions. The Ground work articles explain this.

When I first found this board I did some searches on Ed's name to find out more about him. What I discovered is that his detractors cherry pick statements he's made and quote him out of context to make him look like a harsh trainer. Anyone who has spent anytime really looking at this web site or watching his DVDs knows that is not the case.

Ed's awesome and I look forward to the day that I get to meet him in person.

I love trainers who tell you what you "need" to hear and not what you "want" to hear and over the last few years I have gotten to the point where I tell people the honest truth.

I get comments like Ed is harsh and what not also, but NONE of them can say anything negative about training methods....so they can think whatever they like, however they know that I will just tell them that Ed says it like it is and if you can't handle it, go to Pet Smart...... (evil laugh inserted here)