or perhaps playing isn't the right term - but i'd like him to play. sorry if this is long, i'm just trying to throw out any possibly relevant information.

as i've said elsewhere, i'm new at dogs. i've had luc for two months now, he was in foster care for 6 weeks, and previous to that was in a shelter for 2.5-3 years.

i have started training w/him - we're going to aggression control classes (he's in no way out of control, but i don't plan on allowing him to become out of control either) w/some obedience thrown in. i really like the trainer, he trains schutzhund and seems to have a really great approach to luc (fear and territorial aggression) and came recommended by a couple of different GSD people and a local schutzhund club.

i've been working really hard on groundwork as well as the obedience stuff we're learning (which is very basic, i'm not going to lie - some it is perfecting what i'd worked on with him before, and some of it is new).

luc is starting to play inside, sometimes, but he needs me to get him going and will not play with me. he ignores his toys otherwise, and has just started to pick them up in his mouth/chew on them in the past few weeks.

i want him to play, b/c i think it would be good for him mentally. i know GSDs have to have something to do. so far, i've tried to make our walks/runs/hikes/backpacks/obedience his job, but i want him to have something completely fun for him. eventually i'd like to do something else dog-focused with him so that he has a challenge/something to do, but i'm not sure what as he doesn't strike me as having high drives or being hugely confident - i do recognize that this will change as time goes on.

how can i teach him to play? how can i, outside, teach him to chase a ball or anything similar? i don't even care if he brings it back to me at this point. we do do silly runs where i ineptly bow to him and then chase him and tickle him, and he seems to like it, but i'd like to add to our repertoire.

I am surprised that no one suggested anything. I guess I will be first one to reply this. I hope you feel very honor.

I would not leave any toys out ready for the dog to play with. I rather to keep toys hide in a box that he can not see. When the playing is over, the toys have to go. It teaches him that if he wants to play the toy, he has to play it now not "later." You are teaching him that toys are yours not his. When you take a toy out, he realizes that you decide when you want to play and when you are ready to call it quit.

If he shows a little interest in playing with any toys, you can always play a hide and seek game. You can teach your dog the stay command and then move it to more fun game. You teach the dog to stay and then you find easy spot to hide. You call your dog's name or make a funny frog noise. Your dog will be looking for you and then you can move it into more diffcult spot to hide. I find this game very fun and helpful when I'm trying to teach my dog to come to find me.

thanks lindsay, i feel very honoured indeed i have been leaving his toys out - hoping he'll go 'WOW! i feel like playing with this!' but i can see that it being a special treat item could peak more interest. i'm going to try them away.

david - thanks! i/he have a rope tug, which he will now chew on (huge progress!) and sort of chase along the floor, but not quite. whenever i've tried tugging he seems to have this 'oh, you wanted it. oh, okay then' but i'll try to really ramp up the excitement and keep bring it back to him. he only chews on it when he's settled at the moment, so it'll be a change, but we'll try it.

actually, right now, i throw the ball and then run towards it and try to have us race there, since he will run with me. if he gets there first, i praise him, and get really excited if he sniffs it, but he tends to stop and sit next to it so that i can pick it up and throw it again. when he's good at running with me, i try to remove me as an element, but that generally leads to the spectator sport of watching me throw a ball i didn't think of teaching play like learning a command, but that's a great way to think of it!!

i think schutzhund is really interesting and so impressive - but - in my limited knowledge of what is required, keeping in mind i don't know how to gauge drives, and that he hasn't fully settled - i'm not sure he's the right dog in terms of either prey drive or nerves/stability. it'd be amazing if he was, but i'm not expecting it.

we did more training tonight though, the trainer did a special session at the end of his regular sport protection class w/me b/c of the long weekend, and while we waiting they were doing bite work. we didn't go look b/c i didn't want to distract any dog or handler, and i wasn't sure if it was appropriate, but luc was very curious. the noise wasn't at all off-putting to him. it was great b/c some of the people there helped w/the aggression exercises and i got to practice corrections for that.

luc is doing alright on walks w/other dogs, thanks we actually did a quick walk b/f our class tonight and going around the back another handler had our trainer's (i think) doberman out for pee, who was curious about luc, which luc was aware of and pretty well ignored.

though - we went for a run about 10.45 tonight, and we start out and head towards the park first where he does his business. right before the park, there was a couple w/a maybe 30lb dog, so luc and i passed them in the street. when they entered the park a few minutes later, he growled, so i did the correction - step in front of the dog and block the view of whatever is provoking him, say NO!, yank up on the leash, and make eye contact. b/c we were going for a run, luc was wearing a no-pull harness (i had the back unclipped for greater distance while he poops but the front was still on) so by that the correction was no where near as strong as it would have been if he'd been wearing the prong for a walk. basically, i just controlled the front of his body and he knew it, and i was staring at him. the woman said 'excuse me, you shouldn't do that' - what???? the only thing you know about my dog is that we passed you in the street rather than the sidewalk, and he growled when you entered the park. i just said 'he's in training, please don't tell me what to do with my dog'. but overall, we've been pretty good at avoiding meetings w/other dogs

Dont you just love it when people tell you how to train your dog??? (kinda what we're doing here but this is different, lol) That sooooo gets my goat! These are usually the people that are walking their dogs on 150 degree pavement in the heat of the Arizona summer, looking at their dogs like they are crazy when they are lifting up their feet one at a time to try and bear the heat on their feet. Or better yet, they are the people that serve their dogs in crytal bowls at the dinner table ...grrrrr My reply probably would have been, "Excuse me? I'm sorry, if I wanted your opinion, I would have given it to you!" Irritating!

Raya was a kennel dog in Europe before I bought her so when she arrived at my house things were a shock to her. It did take her about two months for her drives to come out. Honestly, when I first bought her I was getting ready to ask the person I bought her from how much they had to pay the judge for the title.

Totally different dog now. Nice drive.

If your dog lived in a shelter for 3 years I would imagine play is new to him AND the world as he knows it has changed. Changed for the better, but still radically different.

If he is following you to the ball, I think I would get a bigger one and when you both arrive there, kick it.

Attach a toy to a line and make it dance in front of the dog.

Be patient and I think you will find that with time some "play" will come out. Personally I would take things slow and easy and just let him get use to things.

Good Luck! And thank you for taking a dog that was living in a shelter into your home and heart.

 Quote: RobbinMann

Dont you just love it when people tell you how to train your dog??? (kinda what we're doing here but this is different, lol)

well, i am asking....hee hee
right after the correction, he stayed calm, so i praised him and we stayed in the park - so did they - he didn't react and bounced around wagging his tail (pooping is fun!!!!) so i don't think i damaged his psyche or anything

betty - that's true. his behaviour is changing, and we're almost at 9 weeks. that's good to know about raya, it's really helpful to figure out what other experiences have been. i just want him to be happy.

i took the suggestion of crowing over the tug - last night i got it away from him everytime (he lets me take it) but i got him excited to run with me and we'd stop, waggle the tug around, and then take off again. eventually he was trying to bite the tug and grab it. (though he was trying to get it by my hand - i was like 'at the bottom goober! not up there!') we had fun! it's 'special' playing, but he was playing and happy and excited. and it was so nice to see him happy and excited.

(weirdly - i don't get all emotional when he's been heeling really well, but i do when he acts like he wants to play and i might have been a little sniffy last night)

I wrote this whole post, then Internet Explorer crashed. Rrrrr!

Take2: He's got prey drive, I bet he's got a lot more than what you're seeing. You've been able to bring it out quickly, keep working it. Work the tug for a few more days, then toss it when he's locked on it. Don't toss it far, that was the mistake I made. Just a couple of feet is fine. if you make it a continuous motion (part of bringing it past his eyes) he should lock on and go for it. Praise like crazy. He's the cleverest dog in the world.

He grips close to your hand because that part of the tug is the most stationary. The end flops all around, but right near your hand (the base of the tug) there's less fluctuation. he'll get used to gripping the end. You can double the tug over, one side in each hand, and present him the middle if you want.

You know, based on the fact that he's able to ignore dogs (which is healthy) and a lot of the problems he has, it seems like more socialization will help him become a lot more stable, possibly without you doing anything...extreme? You know? Going to great lengths, I guess is what I mean. It seems as though he's never been in these situations, and doesn't know how to handle them. But he's learning and adapting his behaviour. How great for you to see this process. I know I've said this before, but try to keep an objective eye on how far you've come with him.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't keep him on a short lead. You don't know his genetic origins, and as one of the much smarter-than-me members said, you can train a dog with poor genes to behave well, but when the chips are down all that training goes out the window, and it comes down to genetics. So keep doing what you're doing, don't...close your eyes and assume that he's safe....but be encouraged!

Last thing: I think you should have let Luc eat the 30lb dog, then said to the owner "Well, you said not to correct him."

We were in the park yesterday with our training class. An off leash dog runs towards us, our trainer yells "We have dogs up here!! They're mean!" And the owner starts calling his dog, who totally ignores him. This dog (a smallish black lab) makes right for an 80lb Beauceron named Virgil. Virgil is the most obedient dog in our class, and also the most likely to kill a dog that he perceives as a threat. He's a Beauceron, through and through. So my trainer risks her arm (and face) to grab this strange dog by the collar, the dogs owner shouting the whole time "He's fine! He's friendly!!". The dog almost knocks my trainer over straining to get to Virgil (who would have eaten him). And the owner comes up, winded, leashes his dog and drags him away saying "Good boy!".

People don't have a clue what their dogs are like. They see behaviour and they don't know what it means or what kind of trouble it could get their dog into. I'm glad you don't take advice from well meaning idiots seriously.

i'm really not clear how much is he's still settling and that his behaviours are normal. some of the stuff, i don't want to let slide and have bad behaviours develop, but some of the stuff - maybe i shouldn't worry he's not a big player, but then i do....it's possible i overanalyse him

last night i was like wow! he was trying for the tug as i was running with it. great idea about doubling it!!! that makes sense about the stationary aspect.

it's only actually from this board that i'm getting that there's a connection between playing/chasing and prey drive. which seems kind of obvious, but sometimes i think i place things so much within a human context i just don't think about it.

it'll be funny if he does have a higher prey drive than i thought - b/c i have a number of small animals, as i was looking for a dog (particularly when i looked at am staffs and 'pit bulls' all the dogs bad with other animals were listed as having high prey drives. so, i looked for a dog with what i thought would be a low prey drive - he'd been around cats in foster care and lived with 9 free range gerbils (ewww) and left them alone though he could have gotten into where they were. and it's worked out in that he is really good with my animals (he picked up on not playing with the cats very quickly when i started that), but it is possible i had no idea what i was looking at. mind you, while his foster parents (lovely people, we've become friendly) had an existing dog, experts i don't think they were, and i got luc really really really easily from them - i used to work in cat rescue and i'd never give a cat that easily to someone.

 Quote: david eagle

Last thing: I think you should have let Luc eat the 30lb dog, then said to the owner "Well, you said not to correct him."

LOL i don't think he was growling at the dog though - he has always avoided/tried to run from dogs if he's not comfortable with them. i thought he was growling at the people, which he definitely does.

(though, we walked past a park yesterday and luc was doing great with his heel, so i stopped to pet him and praise him and didn't see a large lab bounding out at us until he was there - i had luc sit, then stood between them - the lab moved over, i did as well - happened again and the lab left. luc had an 'umm!' moment but settled down and wasn't at all unnerved by it.

Dear Jennifer: I had the same problem with Bindi. She was in a shelter for a long while before she was sent to a rescue organization where she lived in her crate most of the time, for about 4-5 more months. I have had her for about a month and just now she is beginning to blossom. I started with tug a war and she really started loving it. I never pushed her to play, I am sure being in a cage does something to your mind, and also never being played with doesn't help either. Our patience paid off, she now is a very fun loving dog. I bet they don't know what is the right thing when they first come to a new home. It will take time and I am sure your pup will begin playing. I was discouraged at first too, but I relaxed and that really and just waited and it helped. Two days ago, we actually had a break through, she played with her toy when she did well in training!
Don't loose heart, your pup will come around too, I am sure of it, just be consistently the leader and let her be her. I hope my experience helps you. I really did nothing professional with Bindi, and it all worked out.
Love, Sharon Jean