My 5 month old bullmastiff, "Star", goes into a "down" very nicely from a "sit". That's how I've always taught her. I don't do many repititions each training time, because she's having growing pains and joint stiffness. She hasn't been diagnosed with dysplasia, the vet wants to wait for a few more months before x-raying her.

It seems as if she is able to go into a down alright, but it gets more difficult for her with more repititions and I start to get "half downs". I have never taught her to go into a down from a standing position, so even if she is standing, if I say "down", she always sits first and then downs.

Last night in OB school the trainer wouldn't let us go on to "stand" until we mastered the "down" from a standing position. (They don't do downs from a sit at all there.) Well, my Star couldn't do it - even when the trainer showed me how to put my leg out on the ground and get her to go under my leg front first to get the treat, she still puts her rear on the ground before her front. Now we're stuck at this one command.

Problem is, my husband says it's too hard on her joints to go to a down from a standing position, and to always let her put her rear down first. As long as she's down, he doesn't see the problem what end she puts down first. So he's not wanting me to train her to do the down the "correct" way. He's being very protective of her joints and hips. Now I'm stuck between "passing" obedience school or doing what my husband wants for the dog. (She won't be shown or compete in any way - she's a pet only).

Is it really hard on a dog's hips and joints to do a down from a stand, or is it just something my husband thinks because she gets tired from doing downs from a sit?

Hi Brenda,
As the owner of a bullmastiff mix, I will just comment that I had not trained Nickie to do a "down" from a stand. He was taught to sit first and then down. He has not been to any obedience classes, just what I have taught him from what I have learned here and from the DVD's. In fact, I don't believe that I have ever seen Nickie go "down" on his own from a standing position. He seems too long-legged or clumsy to do that but I don't kow if it is because it is harder on his joints and hips.

Just a thought . . . He is now one year old and weighs about 75 lbs.

Hi Diane,
Thanks! It's been a long time since we've talked. The main reason Star is going to ob classes is because she weighs so much, and she pulls me when we go on walks. Last week she got her rabies shots at the vets and we were shocked when we weighed her that she's already 78 lbs. (and that was LAST week). I want her to be trained in the basics so that she obeys better (she's already such a good girl), but that pulling thing on walks has to stop (and jumping on my houseguests). She stops pulling after the excitement goes down after about 5 minutes, but it's quite embarrassing to be dragged out of the car and into obedience classes.

The German Shepherds in class seem to be able to go straight into a down, but Star is so much heavier than all of them - she's not fat, just a heavy dog. I didn't know I was going to have to train her to do that to be able to continue on in class, but I don't want to force my dog to do something that could be painful for her to do and possibly affect her hips later in life.

You could try putting the treat in your fist and let her smell it then slowly lower your fist to the ground. When I do this with my dog his front end goes down first as I tell him "down".

Having a dog with hip dyplasia myself, I tend to agree with your husband that it could be harder on her joints by having to put her front end down first. My dog always puts his butt down first when going into a down. I don't know if it's because it's easier for him to do it that way, it just doesn't matter to me as long as he follows the command to down. It sounds to me like your trainer is more concerned with seeing an action done in a way that he/she thinks is correct and no concern for what may or may not be a limited ability for the dog.

As far as her pulling you on lead, you can put a prong on her and that will stop that. She's too young to correct her with it, but she will self correct herself when she leans into it and that will stop her from pulling you.

You can keep her from jumping on you or your guests by keeping a drag line on her and stepping on it if when she goes to jump on someone. JMO

Good Luck

My dog (a pet only) downs from the sitting position, as well. I haven't taught "stand"...yet.

This is a total guess, Brenda, but it seems to me you may need to teach "stand" before you can move on to a down from the standing position??? I hope the more experienced people will chime in.

Another thing, your pup is 5 months old, still a baby, so I wondering if this exercise is not a little too much to expect from such a young pup? Again, the "pros" on the board should be able to answer this.

Finally, have you tried a prong collar on walks? NOT to correct her...she's too young for that...but she will correct herself every time she pulls too hard on the leash. They learn very quickly to stop dragging you down the road.

I've never tried a prong - because she is only 5 months and I thought it might be too harsh for her, yet. But if she doesn't quit pulling I may need to soon. She is not a dominant type, in wanting to walk in front of me, she just gets so excited to be out and wants to smell absolutely everything. So she pulls.

She's stopped jumping on me, I just need to now get the jumping to stop on the guests. I don't have THAT many guests so I guess that's why she forgets. I need to invite someone over to help me with that.

Thanks for the tips on the "down". Star does a down on command very easily - it's just always butt first. I'm not sure how old the other dogs were in class last night but there was a small black lab there that looked to be around the same age only he was smaller, and he started the class doing the down butt first, but after the trainer showed the handler how to put the treat under her leg so the dog would have to go down with his head first to get it, the lab got it and did it front end first the rest of the class. Star was the only one who continued to go butt first no matter what.

The rest of the class also knows "stand" as well. At least how to stand from a down or a sit. I saw on Eric Letendre's (the amazing dog training man) website that to get a dog to stand you hold the treat in front of the dog's nose and then move back, getting the dog to get up and take a step forward. Star will do it that way but then keep walking forward. In our ob class the handlers put the food in front of the dog's nose and then move it back into the dog towards it's chest, making the dog stand up in order to get the treat. It works efficiently but in honesty, I had never seen how to teach a dog to stand before searching it for myself on the net. It was our first time in class, so to be expected to do something we hadn't even been taught yet was a bit annoying. Is it that way in all dog schools? We didn't go to puppy kindergarden, so maybe all of the other dogs learned how to do it in puppy kindergarden. Who knows?

Here's a link with some suggestions on how to train the stand, for now or for future reference:

http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/138779/page/1#Post138779

Brenda,
What Peggy Bayer said about holding the treat in your closed hand and slowly lowering it to the ground really works well with Nickie to get him to go down on his front elbows first (with his butt in the air) and then he quickly lowers his butt.

As far as pulling on your walks, I have used a prong collar on Nickie for a long time and he still continues to pull at times. I have found something that works like a miracle recently on our walks (at least it has been working for the past week). He is on his prong collar but I am only holding onto his leather leash with my left hand, with my right hand free. Somehow that seems to lighten the tension on the leash and it really relaxes him a lot! I have heard that dogs can feel what travels down the leash and I guess it is very true - we can walk nearly the entire mile each morning with 99% no pulling! This is a huge improvement.

Brenda, I agree with your husband on this one. If your pup is only 5 months old and is already having joint stiffness, I wouldn't at all exacerbate the problem by having her down from a stand, and certainly I would not do repetitions. Before training comes the health of the dog - to heck with what the "trainer" requires in the way of a down. If your dog is to be a pet, what does it matter if she sits first in order to assume the down position?

Tell your trainer what you feel needs to be done for YOUR dog, and don't let him talk you into doing something that you know is painful for your dog. That's just not acceptable. Your trainer needs to get over himself. It's about the dog, not trainer's ego. If the trainer refuses to let your dog sit first after you explain the stiffness, say goodbye and leave the class.

Although the dog doesn't need to be taught stand first before downing from a stand (he can just be standing and you give the down command then), if your pup is having stiffness, the vet needs to find out what is causing that. I know you've posted about supplements in another post. The pain needs to be addressed for the dog's sake.

As far as the prong on a 5 month old, I would rather not, but if she's already 78# and pulling you around, I don't see the harm in it as long as you use it correctly, put it in the correct position on her neck and don't use it for corrections in training yet, just on walks as a self-correction when she pulls. One small little flick of your hand should be enough to get her to stop pulling if she doesn't self-correct. It doesn't take more than that on a pup.