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Switching from Prey to Defense
#1917 - 11/01/2001 11:57 PM |
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Is there a point where a dog is weaned off of bite work in prey and worked solely in defense? If so, when is that? Or should the dog be doing some bite work in prey throughout its working life? Thanks.
Paul Mudre |
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Re: Switching from Prey to Defense
[Re: Paul Mudre ]
#1918 - 11/03/2001 10:04 AM |
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Originally posted by Paul Mudre:
Is there a point where a dog is weaned off of bite work in prey and worked solely in defense? If so, when is that? Or should the dog be doing some bite work in prey throughout its working life? Thanks.
Paul,
Why would anyone want to wean a dog off bitework in prey? IMO the question ought to be: when should defense be introduced to the dog in bitework? And, that has been addressed at length on this board.
Ellen Nickelsberg |
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Re: Switching from Prey to Defense
[Re: Paul Mudre ]
#1919 - 11/03/2001 10:42 AM |
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The bottom line regarding bitework in a PPD is to make sure that the dog will bite for real... right?
Often, all you need to do is to introduce just enough "pressure" to intoduce a touch of defense in the bitework. However, some dogs will bite for real even though never worked in defense.
Experienced helpers often use muzzle training and hidden sleeves to assess this.
General principles to think about:
1. Prey (bitework) foundation must be sound-- solid bites every time.
2. Dog must be mature (generally over 18 months to 2 years) and have solid nerves.
3. Experienced helper is required.
There may be other important considerations to add as well-- but if you don't have these 3 items to start with-- forget it.
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Re: Switching from Prey to Defense
[Re: Paul Mudre ]
#1920 - 11/03/2001 12:11 PM |
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Great post, Dave! Sounds simple, but you hit the 3 basics that are soooo crucial.
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Re: Switching from Prey to Defense
[Re: Paul Mudre ]
#1921 - 11/03/2001 12:50 PM |
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Gee Ellen, please forgive me for asking the time of day, er, I mean the question. I didn't see my specific question answered in any earlier posts. But since you know that is was perhaps you would be so kind as to refer me to that post.
Otherwise, my question remains unanswered. Yes, the premise is that the dog is fully trained and now that it is, would you continue to do some bite work in prey drive through the working life of the dog or not?
Thank you.
Paul Mudre |
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Re: Switching from Prey to Defense
[Re: Paul Mudre ]
#1922 - 11/03/2001 01:04 PM |
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Paul,
Ellen is right, you never stop working in prey, the bigger issue is when do you start defense.
If you can't be a Good Example,then You'll just have to Serve as a Horrible Warning. Catherine Aird. |
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Re: Switching from Prey to Defense
[Re: Paul Mudre ]
#1923 - 11/03/2001 02:37 PM |
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Originally posted by Paul Mudre:
...Otherwise, my question remains unanswered.
Paul, did you skip over my response? If you've met the 3 criteria, you may have an experienced handler assess your dog. You can begin some defense work in combination with prey if you feel it necessary.
But with defensive aggression, there is often a point of diminishing returns... more is not always better. I agree with Ellen, Richard and Joy... keep the prey and add a little defense work in until you are comfortable that the dog will bite for real.
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Re: Switching from Prey to Defense
[Re: Paul Mudre ]
#1924 - 11/03/2001 03:49 PM |
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Originally posted by Paul Mudre:
Gee Ellen, . . . Yes, the premise is that the dog is fully trained and now that it is, would you continue to do some bite work in prey drive through the working life of the dog or not?
Yes. Like Dave put it so well and so clearly, prey is the foundation of good bitework & good training.
When I said: "And, that has been addressed at length on this board", I assumed you knew that there are archives and a search engine available on this board. Perhaps you didn't -- in which case you can find a thing at the top of every page that says "find" or "search" -- click on it and put in what you want to search for ("prey" & "defense") and it will find the threads and posts that contain your search words. I believe you will find many, many, many, many pages of posts concerning prey & defense -- probably more than you ever wanted to know. Then again, maybe not. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Ellen Nickelsberg |
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Re: Switching from Prey to Defense
[Re: Paul Mudre ]
#1925 - 11/03/2001 03:51 PM |
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Paul,
You don't one day *switch* from prey to defense. The prey is always useful as well as being the correct foundation for bite work. It's not unusual to see a fully trained dog doing rag work sometimes. And, you need a way to help the dog relieve the stress of defensive work. This is why your choice of helper/decoy is so crucial, this is the person that needs to be able to figure out when the dog is getting stressed and go back to some prey bites.
I'd suggest getting out and watching as many dogs work as you can, it will make more sense to you after you've seen it a few million times, observe Sch, NAPD, Ring, whatever you can get to.
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Re: Switching from Prey to Defense
[Re: Paul Mudre ]
#1926 - 11/03/2001 04:30 PM |
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Thanks all for your help; now I know more than I did before. Dave, yes, my dog has accomplished the 3 steps you outlined. I appreciate your input. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Paul Mudre |
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