A lot of people discuss countering (rebiting deeper/fuller, shaking, or pulling) as responses they like to see at key times during aggitation as something to reward...but the same people will often discuss having a calm full grip.

My thoughts are countering to deepen the bite would be good if the bite was not full...but what I believe is better is simply to teach the dog to bite full to begin with...so why not pursue training in such a way that the INITIAL bite is full...and instead of teaching the dog to counter to re-establish control during a "see-saw" of control...why not teach the dog to simply maintain control by maintaining a full bite and having the dog stay intense wish shaking, driving, pulling etc? Now, some might say a "calm bite" is better than a hectic dog, but honestly as long as the dog is clear enough in the head to listen and comply to instruction (such as an out and then a recall or heal)...and strong enough to stay in a heavy battle with confidence...why not use a training method that keeps the dog in control...and keeps the decoy off balance (should it be a real attacker on a street)?

By keeping the fight intense, it is my opinion that the attacker would have a much harder time using a weapon while the guard dogs dominates the threat the entire time...as I personally don't want my guard dog to go "calm on the bite" while working a real bad guy, as that might allow a criminal the momment he needs to deliver a fatal blow from a weapon.

Any comments on the training aspect of this are welcome. I can understand a dog may need to unload the stress, especially if the dog being used is weaker or new at the work, but I believe the best dogs should be able to handle the continued stress of hard battle without having to expose themself to an attack by "relaxing." It seems to me that the best dogs are dogs that were typically in control of their opponent (be it a form of driving prey type control or defensive pulling off balance type of control...but either way in control) would be the best for real world applications.

I am curious as to some of the views why some trainers want their PP dog to be "calm on the grip?"

Lee,

Good question. The way I see it is this... countering only happens during foundation work with a rag, tug, or bite pillow. The reason why it is used and taught is because of all the fighting that is done with the prey item during foundation work along with the pup's grip not being fully developed the prey item tends to slip a bit. Making him re-bite when there's slack allows for the grip to be corrected and for the pup to realize the fight only continues when he has a full grip. This work is not done with a sleeve or suit. I think what people refer to as a "calm grip" is just a grip that is not mouthy or chewy. I would consider a dog with a full bite that is pulling, pushing, fighting and trying to shake the helper to have a calm grip as long as he is not chewing on the sleeve. Just my .02.

Sounds 100% correct to me, and you explained it all very well. The only thing I could add is that for some dogs, the fight is much more fun that the ownership of the object especially early on. And no, promoting and rewarding a counter all the time is not good and can teach bad habits.

"And no, promoting and rewarding a counter all the time is not good and can teach bad habits."

That is what I am thinking also.
I think it has its place, but I think if over done it can make a dog mouthy on the bite. Of course, back tension would help to some degree...but still, I think over doing the "reward the counter" can lead to problems...and that was the reason I made this post and I wanted to get the opinions of other trainers on this matter.

When you say, it can teach bad habbits, what problems or bad habbits have you seen? Have you seen excessive regripping result or is this not really a problem in your mind? What types of problems have you seen?

Also, how do YOU decide when to slip the equipment as the reward and when to "stim" the fight as the reward?

Honestly, the helper I work with is REALLY good so we have not seen any issues from virtually anything creating chewing or mouthing. A dog is never moved to the sleeve until completely 100% ready and biting properly on a pillow without mouthing. Countering is only done with a rag or bite pillow, and never with a sleeve. The progression during foundation work is bite, set the bite (tension from both helper and handler), fight, counter (if necessary), short fight, carry, cradle, and then starting over again after the dog drops the prey or is choked off (hopefully the latter).

As far as slipping the sleeve, once the dog gets a full bite and a quick fight, the bite is set with tension, the sleeve is slipped and the dog carries it for a bit straight into a cradle. Again, sleeve dropped or dog choked off to build drive and the sleeve is kicked and it all starts over. Granted, this is Schutzhund training and PPD or K9 training so you probably initiate some additional fighting after the bite.

Any thoughts? I like to think about these things before continuing...for in my opinion trial and error isn't the best approach. Of course, any method would have to be tried to be proven...but I would like to get some views of others before doing so.

 Quote: Lee Robinson

My thinking is to no longer let her win when she regrips, but only if she goes to the next stage of countering (shaking, driving, or pulling) and only then if her mouth was on a full mouth bite.

This sounds like the perfect way to handle it. Chewing or mouthiness of any kind on the sleeve does not get success. The helper should not give slack in order for her to counter AT ALL.

John, thanks for the feedback. One more question if you don't mind. For although I have some ideas and plans, I don't like "trial and error" methods of training and perfer to be prepared for situations as they occur.

Being I don't see this behavior from her very often, but only when she is rewarded after a counter (as if she learns countering means more success)...do you believe this problem will resurface when off leash work is done?...or would you ask decoys to not respond to her regripping type of counter and only to reward her shake, driving, or pulling counters?

Provided the issue is addressed prior to off leash work, my opinion would be that it would not resurface. I only have about a year's worth of experience though, so I would want to hear what others think.