I'm just curious how many of the trainers would recommend training a dog to attack without a command?

What I mean by this is... if someone were to come up from behind you that you went to high school with that you hadn't seen in years and grabbed you from behind, you wouldn't want the dog to bite that person. Still, how would the dog know that this person was not a threat? Should the dog determine that a threat might be there, he would obviously bite. Should a dog bite w/o command and should a dog be allowed to make that assumption on it's own or should the handler take full responsibility for his/her surroundings? (kinda obvious, the answer is yes, but you know what I mean) On the other hand, what if you are in serious danger and for some weird reason?? you are unable to give the command and the dog is waiting for the release to bite? It is not something that I need to make a decision about at the moment as we just started protection training but is has been brought up to me by another trainer whose views were no dog should attack under any circumstances w/o a command and I thought it food for thought. I then asked my trainer today and there was no question that for him, his dog should bite. His dog is trained to bite if anyone puts two hands on him, w/o a command given. Take into consideration he has no children or a million people coming in and out of his house all day like I do. When people come for training they are put in the back rooms. They are still good around people but I didn't try to pet his malinois, either, lol. He said I would have to make this determination at some point in time and I was wondering what you thought of this. Would you mind helping me put this into perspective? Just another reminder for those that want a dog protection trained to put alot of thought into it. The variables of having a dog trained are many! While I am willing to make these adjustments to own a PPD not all are prepared for these kinds of things. I would like to hear arguement on both sides so that I might make a clear decision.

Train the dog with a command. You really dont want your dog making decisions that could get you sued. Mainly because it has a dog brain and has no concept of you losing lots of money or cars or your house. I mean could you imagine having to explain to a judge that you spent years and X amount of dollars and taught your dog to bite somebody if IT THINKS YOUR IN TROUBLE.

Guess this was a stupid question???

I do not think this was stupid at all. I had to read it a couple times to make sure I understood.

I would want my dog to bite when I told them to, save the liability issues for allowing the dog to decide when biting was appropriate.
However, I really hope that if the dog is trained correctly and with commands, that if you were in a position you could not give the command, the dog would engage to protect you.

Look I was playing around some with my answer. What you described is what people train in ring sports. So there are lots of dogs trained like that. If you want to train it then go ahead. It is fun to train. Great scenarios in training. But there could be a down side if the dog every bit anybody. In my experience in training PP with the public, the attack command was "easy". That way nobody is ever going to say you told your dog to bite. As a matter of fact it appears as though you are trying to calm the dog down. So in training PP you do need to give some thought to the future.

If the dog is a PPD it absolutley should bite if somebody grabs you. A dog that doesn't in the circumstance you described isn't a protection dog.

Wow! David! Awesome idea! LOL!

These were my thoughts too but I guess it really just comes down to what the dog will be used for. In a police or military capacity I would suppose an attack w/o a command might be the way to go, however, for a PPD that is watching over family and primarily "woman" there would be very little need for that. As long as I had my faculties about me I should be the one determining a true threatening situation. I would suppose that anyone dumb enough to see me w/my dog that wants to mess w/me must have some idea that the dog might bite. In that case I could give the dog a disguise command i.e. "easy" and claim the dog only was protecting me and that there was no doubt that I was fearing for my life. I'm guessing if trained correctly the dog will rise to the occassion even if I can not give the command but odds are good that I will always be able to make the determination.

P.S. I guess maybe if I learned to post in the right forum things might get answered..I didn't realize I posted under pups 8 wks to 6 months. Levi is outa that league. Sorry peeps One of these days I might get a clue

IMO a dog that has to be commanded to bite is like a handgun unloaded, useless. I believe it depends on whether or not you want a PPD or just something to play with on the training field. If trained correctly and scenario based your dog should engage without being commanded to. This is what I want in a PPD:
Engages on his own in case I am knocked out.
Engages on his own to allow me time to escape.
Engages on his own in case I am grabbed and unable to speak.
Goes to the door barking and raising hell ready to engage whatever comes through the door.
Will engage whatever may stick it's arm through my car window, door at home etc.
Is suspicious of everyone in all environments.
I want him to be a PPD not a training field toy. I believe his mindset needs to be one of suspicion.
I want a dog who will engage on a passive individual.
I want a PPD.

You must consider that every time you work your dog you are training him to respond in a certain manner to whatever the situation is at that time. A good example is one used by the old man Koehler. If you are training a PPD and the decoy has a limp the dog is going to always be suspicious of anyone who walks with a limp. So, is your dog always going to wait for that command or is he going to do what he has been conditioned to do unintentionally? Along with this I don't allow my dog to be off leash or play with children. I don't allow him to play with adults, he is my dog.

Just a little food for thought.

I can only answer this from a law enforcement perspective, even more to the point, our canine programs perspective. With a canine officer, the dog is trained to attack only when commanded. there is one very important exception to that rule. If you lay your hands on the handler, the dog will bite. We train with very simple rules; the dog, when commanded, pursues, bites and holds until commanded to do otherwise. The dog may, without command, attack a person that attacks the handler. If you lay your hands on an officer with a dog, well let's just say it would not be your best decision for that day.

DFrost

People have different perceptions of what a PPD is, and most people that want a PPD don't understand the responsibilities that go along with it.

If you are not dedicated to owning a PPD, this means accepting the liabilities and exercising the neccesary vigilence and precautions to avoid liabilities, then you shouldn't own one.

A PPD should bite if the handler is assaulted -- as David said, it is as simple as someone putting their hands on the handler.

The reality is, what most people perceive to be a PPD, is not really a PPD. The type of dog that would make a great PPD is the type of dog most people cannot handle, don't want to handle, or feel is too much of a liaility for their suburban family lifestyle to support. The trend with PPD's is to have a fluffy family dog that can tollerate all the crap kids can dish out without eating the child alive, then be expected to be a nasty monster in the event that a situation were to arise where the dog should protect. The types of dogs that make the best PPD's are dogs that aren't really that great as family dogs, but there is little doubt left in your mind as to whether the dog will actually bite.

Just because a dog looks good on the suit, or runs into people wearing a muzzle, does not mean the dog will bite a person, or bite them properly, the first time they are subjected to a real life scenario. Even many police dogs have trouble with their first street bite. A law enforcement officer has somewhat of a luxury to go back in training and address the issue. A civilian will likely never use their dog to bite someone, if it happens, it'll be a one time deal. You want the dog to DO IT, not uhm and err about it. For this, you need a strong, natural dog. Often this means owning a dog that won't tollerate stupid crap like strangers coming up behind you and petting the dog, or people being physical with you when they are having a conversation, tapping your arm etc. These are the types of dogs where the training is more focused on control, rather than teaching the dog to bite, because the dogs genetics already make the dog want to bite everyone.

The types of dogs that make good PPD's are different from the types of dogs that make good PSD's, however, a **GOOD** PPD will also make a good PSD, but not ALWAYS vice versa. For example, any dog that didn't bite properly the first time they went out on the street would not make a good PPD that will likely only bite someone once in their entire lifetime.

What most people really want is a big dog that barks aggressively and puts on a good enough show to instill a false sense of security that the dog will actually save their life no matter what. Kinda like gated communities -- the guard is there to deter, but if someone hops over the wall, the guard will sit in his guard house and dial 911 for you.

The "right" PPD could still live in the house as a family dog, but the dog is a different type of dog to what most people would consider a "suitable family pet" that will let all the kids friends play with him and lets everyone walk into the house without a peep.