Hey all,

I have an 11 month old GSD/Boxer mix that I want to start preparing for schutzhund. His obediance is extremely high but about three weeks ago I hit a snag with protection.

I've never introduced my dog to formal protection but I play with him alot (ball, tug, etc). About two weeks ago I took him to the local club for the first time. The helper worked with all the dogs but showed an obvious dismay to having to work my mutt ( he was excited to work with younger GSD's). Well the helper starts tesing my dog with a tug and he (the dog) keeps starting to play and then stopping to look back at me for reassurance. He loves to play rough with me but just couldn't generalize this to the helper.

The helper just gave me some patronizing statement about my dog ("you have a nice dog, why do you want to make him do this cruel sport") and gave no advice. What do you guys think? I've been told to lay off the obediance and just play a lot with him. Is this right? When should I intro a sleeve? I was thinking of working with one tug, taking all his other toys away and just playing for a few weeks with this tug. The I'd put the tug away and only play with a puppy or intermediate sleeve until he is crazy about the sleeve. Advice?

I would find a different helper if he's gonna give you that attitude.

But, regardless of his poor attitude, some dogs just aren't cut out for the work, and some owners think more highly of their dogs than perhaps the reality really is to someone who has seen hundreds of dogs. Some dogs have problems playing with the helper, or problems focusing, or if they are inexperienced they simply do not understand, and need a skilled helper to make them understand what it's all about.

If you start with a helper who lacks enthusiasm for working your dog then you will only go backwards in training, so like I said, regardless of you or your dogs abilities, look elsewhere for someone to work with. Especially when someone calls Schutzhund a "Cruel Sport". It can be, but that is entirely dependant on the trainer and handler, not the sport.

Also remember, if the dog isn't cut out for it, making the dog into something he isn't does often require cruel training methods, and is a waste of everyone's time. If you come to find that your dog isn't cut out for this work, then accept it and move on to something your dog is cut out for. If his obedience is good, but isn't good enough to cut it in protection, then perhaps look at something like competition obedience instead.

I am definently not trying to make my dog in to something he's not am I'm not trying to be a top level competitor with this dog but at the same time I want to have fun and I think he can do the work and enjoy it. The problem is I haven't done any foundation work with him till very lately.

He's 11 months old, thats not a problem, he's still young. You just need the right people to work with.

Ben, if you've seen prey drive in your dog that others haven't seen yet since he hasn't worked with anyone but you, go with what you've seen. Dump this trainer for his attitude, find one that is willing to do a few sessions so you and a good trainer can make a determination as to whether or not you want to or should proceed. Give the dog a chance and find a trainer who will do the same. I don't believe every dog that is trained for and entered in a Schutzhund trial has the prey drive of a piranha; there are differing levels I'm sure.

I believe it will become clear to you after a few sessions of bite training whether you should continue or not. But you have to have a trainer that's willing to work a bit with your dog to see how the dog responds.

As far as not doing obedience for a while, I have read that lots of obedience can inhibit a dog while doing protection training. I don't have first hand experience with that so maybe someone else will answer that concern.

There are some DVD's you may be interested in on this site that deal with different topics in Schutzhund, etc. There's a list of them on http://www.leerburg.com/vidolist.htm

Should I be doing bite work myself or should I have someone help me? And should I be using a tug or pillow or sleeve?

I would back off on the o/b for now and try to find someone to play tug with the dog. If your the only one that's ever played tug with him it makes sense to me that he might be shy about it at first with someone else. He definitely was looking to you to know if it was o.k. to play. You need to show him it's o.k. and don't give up right away because it might take a few sessions for him to understand. If that helper isn't going to teach you anything then find someone who will.
Start using something he's already familiar with so you know that he's recognizing it as prey. This way you automatically rule out if it's the toy causing a problem or just a strange person.

Ben
I am no expert on Schutzund, but have seen a fair bit done over the last 9 months, and over here in Belgium 'NO' One will put on the Sleeve to train there own Dogs to bite on it. The Pakwerker is always some one else, owners do not do bite work on there own dogs
I agree with the other posts, find another fellow to work with, this fellow does not come up to the standard needed it seems by his attitude
Plus another scenrio is that should you find out eventually that your Dog is not one for Schutzund or protection work, why not try and train him for agility instead, A lot over here do that and have a lot of fun.
In one of the Clubs over here, there is a beautiful G.S Pup he looks $10,000.000, but he is not interested in a rag, or a Obly ball or anything else, he is 10 months old and a Big soft Fluffy Baby but a smashing Dog, The Owners think just as much of him as if he was a World Champion, and rightfully so

I've known alot of people to do bitework with their own dogs, and I do it with my dogs too from time to time, but if you don't know how to read the dog then it's best not to attempt it.

Since your dog knows how to play with you, now it's time to teach him that he can play with other people. I would stick to letting a helper do it now.

As for using a sleeve, you are a LONG way away from this, he should be on a tug or a puppy bite wedge for now, unless his bite is really good, then he can go to an adult bite wedge. But, the hesitation to work with a stranger tells me he most likely needs the puppy wedge, or maybe even going back to a leather rag just till he gets used to working with the new helper.

I agree, stop OB for now. Especially with the seeking of permission from you before engaging with a helper, the dog needs to learn to make his own decisions and not worry so much about whether daddy thinks its ok.

Benjamin,

It is nearly impossible for a first time handler/trainer to develop a good foundation in protection with an 11 month old mix breed dog that has a lot of OB training without help from an experienced helper. There are just too many things going against you in this scenario. That is not to say that your dog cannot train in Schutzhund. My helper will work any breed of dog regardless of pedigree to see what they have on the field. Pedigree means nothing if the dog can't work. Now, a dog that has been bred for this work is more likely to be better at it, but prey drive is prey drive and good nerves are good nerves regardless of pedigree or appearance. Find another club and bring him out there. In the meantime, you could get some very good guidance from the "Building drive and focus" and "Preparing your dog for the helper" DVD's Leerburg has. Where are you located?