i never thought i'd be asking this. i think i've said b/f that i got insulted when a male friend said 'i notice women get large dogs to protect them' i was really insulted. i did not get either of my dogs with that thought in mind. to be honest, i've always wondered where people w/PPDs lived

but - i don't want a PPD, but i think i've mentioned a few times - my neighbourhood is getting less nice due to gentrification of another nearby neighbourhood. in the past couple of weeks, there was a shooting 200M from my house, a creepy man in the park wearing a mask, and even i - and trust me, i'm pretty oblivious - have noticed more open drug/street culture. traditionally, if i was trapping a feral cat or something in a bad neighbourhood, i just took the 'don't act scared/like a victim and you'll be fine' approach and that worked, but i LIVE here, this isn't a place i'm popping in and out of.

so - i don't want a PPD, but - is it silly to want to develop certain guarding-type behaviours in teagan? (not luc, he does not have the personality that i can at all imagine)

i don't know if what i'm asking makes any sense, i don't know if i quite know what i mean. basically - take a behaviour like growling at strangers in the park - i've taught luc not to do this, and i don't allow teagan to (though to be honest she doesn't exhibit that behaviour anyways - she'll watch them very closely, but she's not vocal) - on the basis that i make the decisions of who is a threat.

how do you teach a dog to distinguish what is, or is not, a threat? should i? i was very happy when both dogs ran at the guy in the mask (neither exhibited any aggressive behaviour, so no corrections, though i wouldn't have there anyways to be honest).

this post probably makes no sense, but i guess i'm just asking - is it possible for me to continue in my role as the dogs protector AND have teagan trained, not in bitework, but in more rudimentary guarding behaviour? or is this a bad idea given that she is relatively dominant and does display prey and what i think is dominance aggression (to strange dogs) sometimes? she's not exactly a shrinking violet when it comes to people either, she stares so much at them in an assertive fashion i notice people moving away (she is walking controlled at my side, i think people just find it off-putting).

is it possible to channel her dominance/assertiveness to be more guarding, and - is it fair of me to do so if she's not a properly/fully trained PPD? will i be placing her in an unfair position? i'm not sure if i what i want to do is trade on the image/reputation of GSDs, which i've actually always disagreed with, but - part of me likes the idea of having an assertive dog for when people in masks wander by or for the moments when people are ranting/raving/freaking out in a violent fashion. but i wouldn't want her to be assertive without my control.

am i making any sense? i guess, to summarize the world's longest post, is it a)advisable to channel some of her behaviours into a controlled guarding behaviour (and how do you do so); and b)would i ethically be fair to teagan by doing so, in terms of potentially putting her out there without a full set of tools, so to speak.

....sorry this is so rambling!

....also noting that i am not exactly an experienced handler/trainer.

(and i'm still doing basic obed. with teagan anyways....the longer we work on it, the more she remembers she does know these commands - i find that with her it's a matter of whether or not she is accepting of me as someone who can tell her what to do - we're making good progress there, but obviously still have a ways to go)

These are good questions Jennifer, ones unfortunately I can't answer.... I myself have wondered these exact things. I got my dog wanting a good companion who would protect me, I was having some issues where I felt my personal safety may be in jeapardy. At first I considered protection training, but was told by many people that it relly isn't a good idea with a Rhodesian Ridgeback. Being considered a hound breed, they are a little too independent and stubborn. I was also assured he would be naturally protective.

I would still like to do some basic training, as you described. Maybe an alert to make him watch, and a command to make him bark and appear more agressive. And, truth be told, if I was in danger, I would hope he would not hesitate to bite someone. He is already getting protective of our home, barking, etc. but on walks, so far is curious and friendly.

Any advice out there from the pros? Is this a good idea? and as Jennifer states "is it a)advisable to channel some of her (and him) behaviours into a controlled guarding behaviour (and how do you do so); and b)would i ethically be fair to teagan by doing so, in terms of potentially putting her out there without a full set of tools, so to speak."?

Edited by Shody Lytle (11/19/2007 09:41 AM)
Edit reason: spelling

Jennifer,

You make sense, and I can understand your feelings. BUT, Mr. Miagi from the Karate Kid was very wise, and his advice about Karate applies to protection training... "Protection train yes (Helper work, obedience in drive, training control for real world situations) SAFE. Protection train no - SAFE. Protection train little bit squish like grape." You walking two GSD's in a relaxed and confident manner is plenty of deterrance. If you are a bit worried beyond that, get some pepper spray for your walks. Your dogs will know when there is a real threat because they feed off of you. You obviously work on rank, and keeping your pack in order and do not allow aggressive behavior. Neither of your dogs show avoidance or cower behind you when meeting new people, so at the very least they will sound off and bark to ward off someone you are uneasy about because they will sense your nervousness. Only a very small percentage of bad guys out there would try to take on two GSD's to assault you, and since you are not a target or do anything that would make you a target for the really well trained bad guys the percentage drops to next to nothing. Someone looking to mug or assault a woman is looking for an easy target to assert their pathetic attempt at dominance on, and you with your two GSD's is like me (6'4" 300lb man)with one. The path of least resistance is to find an easier target. Add in pepper spray and now you have the means to protect yourself as well.

shody - yup!

john - thank you. that does make sense, that's in essence what i've been concerned with - improperly training a dog and expecting it to display a certain degree of protective behaviour is probably a really bad idea, and i wasn't sure it is possible to properly train a dog halfway, so to speak.

i know the dogs do act as a deterrant - though i wish they'd acted a bit sooner w/the guy in a mask, they did - i honestly do feel that he would've attacked me if i hadn't had two large and (eventually) alert dogs (they only looked up from sniffing a tree and ran at him when he slowed down and very openly watched us, and he just had something about his posture - i don't scare easily, but i was scared - he did move off quickly once the dogs ran at him, but they didn't do so until he was close to us, though - i was trying very hard to appear calm and confident, perhaps they picked up on that, rather than on my 'AUGGGHHHH!' reaction).

Edited by Jennifer Mullen (11/19/2007 09:54 AM)
Edit reason: addition

What does it mean when a dog (my GS) stops and just stares at people- the way Jennifer described. My dog will bark- and I have to redirect him since I take him to work with me. When we go for walks at night he will bark. But I noticed sometimes he just stares at people and it scares them. Is he assesing a situation? When I took him through the therapy dog training we had to pass the public access test at the mall and Applebees. He pretty much stayed attuned to me and just walked along. When we went in one store and I was looking at some items , a lady walked in- she commented " he's just staring at me " Well he was, but I think it is when people show hesitation, he picks up on it and perhaps finds it something to assess a as a potential threat. I dont really want him to stare and scare people bc he's is a sweety. My dog seems naturally protective and I want him to back off a little and let me be the judge , rather than him just go ahead and bark. Any comments or advice???????? And what is the staring behavior about?

ok, well, i'm no expert, but with the barking at ppl, especially at night - luc used to do something very similar, if we were alone in the park and someone entered and i was not paying attention (picking up after him, etc), he would move forward and growl/bark at them.

i was never clear how much of it was fear aggression vs. territorial aggression, as his body language was not fearful, but i understand that fearful dogs can display aggression without obvious fearful body language.

anyways, it took two corrections to break luc of the behaviour (the first correction was on a non-pull harness for our run, the second was on the prong). basically, when he growled/barked, i said NO!, swung around so i was in front of him (blocking his view of object/person), giving a sharp upwards correction, and making prolonged eye contact before i ended the correction. edited to add: my body language was also very assertive when i did this, i projected dominance over him (or tried to) in being very assertive, bigger than him, and staring him down.

it worked. neither time was so hard that he went into avoidance, but he learned that he's not allowed to growl/bark at ppl in the park.

with teagan, she's a bit different - she doesn't vocalize, but she does definitely intimidate some people through her eye contact (something i need to work on....even if i had gotten positive responses about partial guard/protection training, i feel i should be in control of her behaviours).

For me, watch them all you want. As long as the dog does not show outward displays of fear or aggression (hackles, growling, barking, etc.) and the dog is in control and able to listen to me I'm fine.

The way you describe your dogs behavior is similar to my dog and the people on this site have said given the body posture and confidence in the bark it is not fear driven but rather,territorial or protective of handler- me. This is not cool in a school though.Just has a happened a few times. Well my dog is only 15 mo old so they said his age is like a teen. He mostly only barks at work when people stop and panic at the site of a GS. Once I introduce them he is fine and works well with the kids. i have to give the correction when he does it- so I chose to set up situations and work outside the school to get him in check. Dont want to scare people. Outside of school he barks in the house every time he even hears a doorbell on TV. I still wish some one knew what the staring behavior means- it does tend to concern people.

I think Jennifer is right about being on top of the eye contact for an animal that is a pet. I won't say it's true in all cases, I'd have to see the body language to know, but often a "hard" stare is a sign of dominance, or a warning. If your dog is giving a hard stare to strangers it's not necessarily a bad thing, as long as (like John says) they listen and don't get their hackles up and start going crazy. But be aware that if the dog is showing that early sign of being willing to assert itself, you need to make absolutely certain that it knows that YOU are the pack leader, and that it doesn't GET to make decisions about how to behave with outsiders.

Unless it's a PPD.