Well I got a couple of Clicker books in the mail from Leerburg. I had started to fool around with a ckicker last year. I was using it to teach some tricks and polish some ob, basically fust for fun.

I had never shaped anything. I always lured (initially when teaching)and marked, with the exception of the eye contact game which is pretty easy to shape.

So now I decide I want to shape a behavior. I chose pick up and hold and article (jute role). I decided on this because although my dog has a nice retirieve (taught with tug fight as reward), I once tried to backchain this with corrections (chin tap) and lightly holding his mouth shut, but all I got was "SHUT DOWN" I was not so smart. And he is soft.

Anyhoo, just finished our first session and it is gonna be tricky! I put the jute on the floor and intended to click for him touching it with his nose.

He is so used to getting a command or being lured that this was foreign and frustrating for him. He was just sitting there ignoring the jute completly waiting for a command, shifting his weight and whining. The eye contact game was not bringing his click either. He offered some behaviors: eye contact, whining, down mostly, but would not look at the jute unless I pointed to it or moved it!

I always think my dog is so smart, but it took about 40 tries (2 sessions) of me pointing or moving the jute and then him touching it for him to GET that that is what makes the clicker go.

He was just getting it on his own (I did not need to point out the jute or move it to get him to nose it). And we ended the session. PHEW.

Do they start to GET the shaping game in general after a while? I mean I can already tell him to "get" something and bring it to me, but that is not shaping is it? How frustrated do you let them get before you offer them hints. I could see the stress building in his eyes

Comments, suggestions?

I think it is the most frustrating for them while they are learning what shaping is. Once a dog understands to throw behaviors it's fun.

Make sure you're starting really small (i.e., he should get a few clicks for looking TOWARDS the jute, then AT the jute, etc.

The real challenge for him is that you're trying to teach him what shaping is while flying in the face of something you've already trained. Why not teach him something else first? Maybe a spin? Or how to play dead? It might be easier to relay the concept of shaping, then move into territory that seems to conflict with his previous training.

Also, for this specific thing, there's a "wand" or "Stick" used to teach dogs to touch things. The idea is, you shape the behavior of them touching the end of a specific stick with their noses. Once they have that down, you use the stick as a lure to get them to touch an item, and then you slowly remove the stick and reward them for touching the item. It is how some people train dogs to close cabinets, drawers, turn on lights, etc.

Doing this would shape the behavior that you want without flying in the face of your previous training, which seems to be what is causing the tension.

Farley is smart. Too smart. He knows what he's supposed to do and what he's NOT supposed to do, and he's trying to comply.

David,
Thank you for that post. I've been messing around with the clicker on my pup and I have been having a terrible time. I'm so used to rewarding other ways. Sometimes he gets it, other times he doesn't. He's very smart and goes through all sorts of motions to get the click until he hits the one I want. I'm sure its me and not him.

Howard

 Quote: david eagle

I think it is the most frustrating for them while they are learning what shaping is. Once a dog understands to throw behaviors it's fun.

Make sure you're starting really small (i.e., he should get a few clicks for looking TOWARDS the jute, then AT the jute, etc.

The real challenge for him is that you're trying to teach him what shaping is while flying in the face of something you've already trained. Why not teach him something else first? Maybe a spin? Or how to play dead? It might be easier to relay the concept of shaping, then move into territory that seems to conflict with his previous training.

Also, for this specific thing, there's a "wand" or "Stick" used to teach dogs to touch things. The idea is, you shape the behavior of them touching the end of a specific stick with their noses. Once they have that down, you use the stick as a lure to get them to touch an item, and then you slowly remove the stick and reward them for touching the item. It is how some people train dogs to close cabinets, drawers, turn on lights, etc.

Doing this would shape the behavior that you want without flying in the face of your previous training, which seems to be what is causing the tension.

Farley is smart. Too smart. He knows what he's supposed to do and what he's NOT supposed to do, and he's trying to comply.

David,

Thanks for your reply!

So we already know a touch command only not with a stick. I just use my hand a certain way and he knows to "touch" it with his nose.

I suppose if clicker folk get the dogs to touch things by pointing at something then that is no different than me pointing at the jute. Then I just slowly stop pointing and he knows jute=click=reward. That is kinda were we left off.

I guess I was under the impression that I was just supposed to sit there and WAIT for the behavior to happen on it's own and then reward it. You are correct that what I was asking of him was flying in the face of all previous training

He was just sitting looking at me to TELL him what to do

He has know play dead (BANG BANG) since he was a pup, I use it to examine his belly and the like. The SPIN was actually the first thing I tried yesterday after opening the book.

It was no problem because I did it the way I always have and just had him follow my finger around in a circle, click! I was not actually shaping though because I am impatient, I just clicked for the times he followed my hand ALL THE WAY around, an not clicking for "looking to the right, then looking to the right and taking a step...." and so on like it says in the book.

Those clicker folk do AMAZING things, but the pure shaping...I dunno. I am anticipting the next thing which is that my dog will touch the jute with his nose, but never change strategies on his own to opening his mouth as he is used to being marked or clicked for a COMPLETED behavior. I have never been in the habit of letting him think for himself

It will be interesting to see how we progress tonight. As you suggested I may abandon ship on that one if progress is not positive.

Over the past month I have occasionally been using the clicker to mark walking backwards at a heel, starting with one step, then two...so I guess that is shaping

Yeah. It sounds like you completely understand how to shape. Honestly, shaping takes a looottt of patience, and I don't use it if I can lure. It's cool what you can teach with it, but...ergh.

In traditional shaping that's exaclty what you do. Sit and wait and click to reward. Only after the dog offers the COMPLETE behavior on his/her own several times do you start saying a word (command) AS the dog does it. But yeah, "hard-core" shaping is just staring at your dog, waiting for it to do something, then clicking, you're right about that. The easiest way to shape a command is to document the specific steps that you intend to shape (literally list them on a piece of paper) then sit down and go down your list, just like you say (1. eyes look left, 2. head turns left, 3. shoulders twist left, head facing back...etc, but you know that). Shaping CAN be fun to do. Sort of. If there's a behavior you want to teach and there's no other convenient way to do it. Remember, really really small steps.

Remember you don't have to shape a whole behaviour, either. You can shape parts of a behavior, assign commands, then combine the commands and teach a word for the whole behavior. I forget what this is called. Chaining? Maybe. I'll have to dig out my clicker books, it's been a while.

Shaping behavior is not a function that exclusive to the clicker. By definition shaping is: “Shaping is a technique by which a student is reinforced for exhibiting closer and closer approximations to desired behavior. It is useful in teaching new desired behavior and is a natural way of encouraging the student to increase the prevalence of desired behavior. (B.F. Skinner)

Whether you are luring, using pressure, voluntary behavior or any other type of technique to induce the behavior you require, and you reinforce that behavior, you are shaping.

DFrost

 Quote: david c.frost

Whether you are luring, using pressure, voluntary behavior or any other type of technique to induce the behavior you require, and you reinforce that behavior, you are shaping.

DFrost

Absolutely. But in the specific context of the clicker training vernacular, Shaping has meaning that is more specific than the general behaviorist definition.

Since the question was posed in reference to "shaping" as a technique in clicker training, its greater, additional meanings are irrelevant to the conversation.

 Quote: david eagle

Absolutely. But in the specific context of the clicker training vernacular, Shaping has meaning that is more specific than the general behaviorist definition.

I don't follow that. If I were using a verbal marker instead of the clicker .....

Clicker training is marker training.

Shaping behavior in small steps, identifying the behavior as it happens with a marker signal (clicker or not) ..... Isn't that what you're discussing?

I really must be tired. This is the second thread tonight that had me saying "Huh?"

You're right, Connie. And I'm probably being too much of a stickler on this, but David seems to be saying that any sort of training (behavior shaping) is "Shaping". In clicker training, the word "Shaping" often refers to a specific method of shaping behavior that doesn't involve any luring or pressure and relies only on rewarding totally voluntary behavior.

Because of this, in the context of this discussion about the clicker training method called "Shaping" (which Jennifer describes perfectly("I guess I was under the impression that I was just supposed to sit there and WAIT for the behavior to happen on it's own and then reward it.")) it is inappropriate to think about "shaping behavior" in the greater context of the term. We are reffering to a specific technique. That's all I was trying to clarify. Whew! Now I'm confused!!

Personally I think the Skinner quote was appropriate. Skinner is the one who put Operant Conditioning on the map. That is what Cliker training is.... Operant Conditioning. Teaching your dog to think about what you want it to do.

Shaping is just breaking things into small little baby steps. You want a dog to touch something, you click and treat first for looking at the object. Then when the dog takes a step toward it. Then 2 steps. Once a dog understands the exercise, it goes quickly.

Both my Mals LOVE the clicker game. The see the clicker come out and start offering behaviors.

It can seem daunting at first. It took Toni FOREVER to figure out the game. I admit that I was pretty frustrated at first... Once the dogs learn to think operantly they start to pick stuff up really fast. If I want them to touch something with thier nose, now I just have to look at the object and they will touch it.

Don't give up... the dog has to learn a new way of looking at things and thinking about it. Sometimes that takes a little time...

I am actually starting to use the clicker with my horse.. we'll see how that goes