Hi,
I am thinking of beginning some shutzhund training with my dogs.
It looks like it would be really fun to train! I'm wondering about the protection training. If I teach my dog that it is a game and fun to tug on someones' arm or leg, would they ever decide to do that on there own with someone when we were not in a training/working mode? I hike with my dogs off leash quite a bit and they will get out in front of me around a curve where I can't see them. When I get around the corner people will be interecting with my dogs (petting and such). Would my dog possibly take this opportunity to do a little shutzhund play with them??? I can't imagine this would go over very well!
I'm guessingn this is probably a sensitive topic but I'm really just asking an innocent question so I can be informed and prepared.
Thank you,
Carole

Okay Carole I'll start,
First off, I never ever allow my dog to be out of sight. And she is never off lead unless it is under very controled conditions, thats because I do not have a completely proofed recall. Does your dog have a recall under any and all conditions?
Lets start there.
Randy

Randy,
Her recall is pretty darn good. I can't promise she would recall in the middle of chasing a rabbit but if I catch her before she takes off she will.
Hiking I won't give up. She has good manners on the trail to people and dogs. And hiking with a dog on lead....well, what a drag.
Are you saying that I should worry about my dog initiating a game of "protection" with someone?
Carole

An FYI about hiking: I hike with my dogs on lead if I'm going to be on a trail, or likely to be in a place where I'll encounter other people/dogs. My dog-aggressive dog is ALWAYS on lead and in muzzle, but it's still quite an unpleasant experience when off-lead dogs precede their owner to the point that their owner can't see them, invariably run up to my dogs, and force me to intervene. The dog I consider to be 'safe' off lead (with an electric collar) never leaves my sight and isn't allowed to approach dogs or people without their/my 'okay' first. I don't think I would do any bite/protection work with a dog until it is trained at least to this point. Hopefully someone with more experience in this area will chime in.

 Quote: carole seller

Randy,
Her recall is pretty darn good. I can't promise she would recall in the middle of chasing a rabbit but if I catch her before she takes off she will.
Hiking I won't give up. She has good manners on the trail to people and dogs. And hiking with a dog on lead....well, what a drag.
Are you saying that I should worry about my dog initiating a game of "protection" with someone?
Carole

Carole,

I always hike with my dog off lead. HOWEVER, I do not allow him to go around the corner and run up to people and their dogs. If he is going around a blind corner and I can't see if someone is approaching I will tell him to "wait", until I can see.

It is a real pet peeve of mine and a lot of folks on this board that people let their dogs run up to strangers and their dogs with the "he's friendly" yell from their owners somewhere in the background.

For example, my dog is not keen on dogs not from his pack, though he has many dog friends. He is not crazy dog aggressive, but does not go for having his butt sniffed by just any dog. I do not like him to get the opportunity to practice unwanted behavior (aggression), so I choose to have him ignore dogs he has no reason to know. I LOVE it when other dog owners respect that I have training goals that do NOT involve other strange dogs charging off lead towards us.

If I see others out walking their dogs and mine is off lead, I recall my dog, always. Some people are not dog people and don't like dogs running up to them to be petted either. JMHO

On the SchH thing. Though I don't do it, it is my beleif that it can be very equipment focused. Ie: dog bites sleeve, not bare arm.

However you never know what will happen when your dog is out of your sight. Maybe some woman that is afraid of dogs that has a sweater draped over her arms decides to run away, or block the dog with her arm. I think it depends on your dog and the training you do. I look forward to hearing what those actually in the sport say....

i agree that if you're going to be hiking w/your dog off-lead, you want excellent recall and need to be paying a lot of attention.

b/c if your dog does get ahead, you never know who it is going to meet, and how it's going to react. even if it's something as simple as a trail runner triggering prey drive (happens to runners all the time). nobody should have to deal with that. in my experience, dogs often act differently when their owners/pack leaders aren't there watching.

it also means you're there to protect your dog if there are other dogs off-leash that perhaps would be better on-leash.

Most of my dogs have all had incredible recall, but even a dog I think has a perfect 100% recall no matter the situation, if off lead in an area where I will encounter other people or dogs, will have an ECollar on. Though there are many areas here where I hike and take our dogs out to exercise where there are no other people or dogs, and will be no other people or dogs the entire time I am there - up in the mountains where you cannot drive to get to. Even then I often (75%of the time) have ECollars on the dogs, be they house pets/companions or my working dogs, and they are never ever allowed out of my sight.

You are interested in Schutzhund and protection dogs? Is it because you want a dog that will "protect" you or you are just interested in the sport of Schutzhund? (just curious)

IMO, a Schutzhund/Sport dog and a protection dog are most always different things - one does not mean another, they are not the same. I would personally never rely on a schutzhund or sport dog to "protect" me in a real life situation against real bad guys with real intent.

To me, Schutzhund is a sport, and a lot of fun and a great outlet of energy for a dog, and the sport often paves the way for dogs to become PPDs. (Personal Protection Dogs) But it takes a certain type of dog, trainer, and handler, to do protection work. Where as schutzhund and sport work is more open and a wider variety and type of dog can be very successful in Schutzhund competition.

Any dog, house pet or sport or working dog, should always be under control and never off a lead to roam about when there is even a 50% chance of seeing/coming across other people or other dogs. Even if your dog is "very friendly and well-behaved" that does not mean the person out walking their own dog is comfortable with your dog charging up to them. If their dog is dog aggressive you could have a serious issue on your hands, your dog could be hurt, that other person could be hurt, you could be hurt, etc.

Schutzhund training does not make a dog more or less dangerous than any other dog, and IMO most of them are less dangerous than the average joe house dog because they have a lot more training, often a more knowledgable handler, and the dogs temperament is a known fact not a guessing game. With that said, even a trained-to-the-ears dog with a very experienced handler should not be running around loose on hiking trails with other people and animals. -- For the safety of all.

Just because a dog is trained to bite a sleeve on a training field does not mean it will bite Joe Schmoe in the parking lot, but a dog with a high prey drive trotting along a path that encounters a runner in baggy sweats or multiple layers may have a go. You need to know your dog, and have it under control, no matter the training.

Just my 2 cents

Jenn

It sounds like this became more of a discussion of whether I should be hiking trails off leash or not. My real question was if a dog might suddenly decide to do protection work (and I mean in the sport shutzhund way) on someone that wasn't instigating it. Any behavior could happen on OR off lead, within my sight or just around the bend. I don't think anybody can say they can predict their dog 100% of the time. I would hate for it to happen on lead OR off lead. Of course, off lead would be of much more concern as I couldn't correct my dog immediately. But I wouldn't want my dog to even think about it. I don't feel like my question has been answered directly but I certainly get the feeling that the message is it wouldn't be a good idea to trust a dog that has been trained to "bite" not to go ahead and make the decision on her own to do it if she thought the moment was right for the game. I wouldn't have asked the question if I hadn't suspected this anyway. I was just hoping to hear from some personal experiences.
Thank you all for your input. I will certainly put some more thought into this and consider other sports to crosstrain my dogs in that might be more appropriate for us. Although, I am a bit disappointed as I thought having the obedience, tracking, and protection work wrapped up all in one sport sounded like blast to train!
Thanks again!
Carole

 Quote: carole seller

It sounds like this became more of a discussion of whether I should be hiking trails off leash or not. My real question was if a dog might suddenly decide to do protection work (and I mean in the sport shutzhund way) on someone that wasn't instigating it. I was just hoping to hear from some personal experiences.

Thank you all for your input. I will certainly put some more thought into this and consider other sports to crosstrain my dogs in that might be more appropriate for us. Although, I am a bit disappointed as I thought having the obedience, tracking, and protection work wrapped up all in one sport sounded like blast to train!
Thanks again! Carole

Carole I started training my dog in protection Shutzund style (which is just arm sleeve)and have now moved on to French Ring training (bite suit). For a better explanation check this link .. It will give you a quick overview of the 2 sports.
http://www.dantero.com/frschdif.htm

I like yourself had some misgivings about training bitework since I have young children. I then throughly researched the options and more importantly the available local resources to be be properly coached. This is the most important piece of the puzzle. Without a club with a good decoy/helper it is next to impossible to train your dog in a protection based dog sport, even with DVDs and other sources you and your dog need physical help to begin. This is where to start.

Once I found people who were able to help. I started doing the training with an open mind knowing if I saw any change for the worse in my dogs behaviour towards my kids or other people I'd can it, I as well discussed any misgivings with our coaches and my dog's breeder beforehand. I posted here for guidance numerous times too.

We have been training protection since June and exclusively French Ring since September. I am now seeing the super positive results with my dog in overall obedience and her whole general demeanor. I can honestly say this type of training has not increased aggression in my dog. Now I've gotten a better trained dog for it.

Whoa, whoa Carole,
While on the surface the discussion may appear to have veered into something you did not ask about, it is all relevant. Out of sight is out of control, a not full proof recall (deer, rabbit, or cat inclued) in drive is not in control. The dicussion speaks to the mind set that the dogs will do fine as long as I'm somewhere close. Not a good thing with any dog, too many variables in life.
You are right, the sport of Schutzhund does incorporate many disciplines, all good. It is fun! For all of that though, it takes more then exercising the dogs and training once a week. It is fun! Keep in mind though as the training goes on the dog becomes more confident and on top of that you are teaching them how to bite, under formal conditions granted, but you are teaching them to bite none the less. Confident dog+hard bite+blith owner= disaster waiting to happen.
I don't believe it is anybodys intent here is to discourage you from trying any dog sport be it Schutzhund, agility, obedience, tracking, or what ever your bent is. At the moment I think you have to realize the possiblities every time your dog/s are out of control and start there..............Now Schutzhund is fun.

If I'm not learning, I'm not paying attention.
Randy