the choke chain thread got me wondering (and carol's right, it's another thread).

benjamin mentioned trainers who use postive-only, no-corrections methods to deal with aggression.

how would you do this with a animal-aggressive and handler-aggressive dominant dog? i'm not trying to be snarky, i'm honestly curious if this could be done.

(personally, and this is probably a bad example of me sinking to the level of the dog, but if it's okay for her to bite me, it's okay for me to correct her. she's brought it on herself.)

anyways, i like to use a more holistic approach that incorporates positive and corrections - so if i could get a few new tools to try, i'd be interested.

positive methods to teach that killing other animals is not okay? that you shouldn't bite the human b/c they pick up a toy?

Well, I've used desensitizing and counter-conditioning for fear aggression and for violent resource guarding.

so it would be a gradual reduction in the amount of aggression, as the dog learns there are other options?

would it be setting up a scenario where the animal can get to the point of no-return and/or cause damage, and working within that?

I believe positive works if used on pups from the get go. I train for sport and competition.
Adult dogs that have aggression issues, whether it's dominance, nerves, poor and/or heavy-handed training, etc, don't get this way over night.
A dog that is actually biting people or killing other animals, needs to get the message across to them fast. I draw the line on positive for aggression issues that have developed over time and have created safety issues.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Well, I've used desensitizing and counter-conditioning for fear aggression and for violent resource guarding.

Connie, I agree with that 110% but this instance is about dominace aggression. Not sure how, or if I would try handling that motivationally if it involved anyone other then myself.

thanks bob.

so teagan is 5 yo, and i've had her for just over 5 weeks.

i'm improving at stopping problems before they stop, but i don't think certain of her behaviours i'll ever really get rid of, more that i'll learn how to control them.

she hasn't killed any animals since i've had her, but she has tried, with small dogs, has tried to attack large dogs that weren't properly respectful, goes after the small animals in the house (she's kept on leash. when i had a trainer come in-house to help me with her issues, he tried an exercise where my dominant aggressive male rabbit was out, and she took him aback b/c without warning signs, she went for nikolai (little bit less fur) but he did catch her in time so nikolai was okay. as the trainer said, and my own experience with her shows this, she wants to kill, not to play with, the prey objects). she bit me (got away with scrapes) when i picked up a toy near her, and as she was on a flat collar at the time, came up the leash at me when i corrected her (it was a bad correction, since i forgot one end of the leash was around my foot). she will escalate on the prong if i'm just a bit too late with the correction, once she turned on luc (but not too badly, it was an easy separation) and has gone after luc over pack order issues (though i was able to separate without problems).

so - i was curious generally, but specifically to teagan - okay, i'm a novice handler, and i'm learning to handle a dog like her - but corrective tools make me feel safer. i wouldn't be opposed to using positive methods with her as well, but i almost feel like she's not at the point in all of her behaviours (particularly the prey behaviours) where a positive method would sink in, if that makes any sense. it's not that she's going off all the time, she isn't, but when she does - i need to be prepared for it, if that makes sense.


edit: and i should note that 99% of the time she's great with luc, when they played together (no reoccurences, darn it) she was even gentle with him. it's when he's 'stepped out of bounds' or at least that's how i'm reading it. i didn't want it to sound like she's horrible to luc or i'm letting him get picked on.

 Quote: Jennifer Mullen

would it be setting up a scenario where the animal can get to the point of no-return and/or cause damage, and working within that?

No. You know, I have to be very clear that I am NOT talking about dominance-aggression or situations where anyone's safety is at risk.

Maybe my reply about growling over the dog dish or hackling and lunging at passer-by dogs is not appropriate to the wording of the original post.

 Quote: Bob Scott

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Well, I've used desensitizing and counter-conditioning for fear aggression and for violent resource guarding.

Connie, I agree with that 110% but this instance is about dominace aggression. Not sure how, or if I would try handling that motivationally if it involved anyone other then myself.

Bob is absolutely right.

Re-reading the o.p., I see that my response was not relevant.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: Jennifer Mullen

would it be setting up a scenario where the animal can get to the point of no-return and/or cause damage, and working within that?

No. You know, I have to be very clear that I am NOT talking about dominance aggression or situations where anyone's safety is at risk.

Maybe my reply about growling over the dog dish or hackling and lunging at passer-by dogs is not appropriate to the wording of the original post.

re-reading that quote, i think i actually meant to say 'where the animal can't get to the point of no return'

I want to just make a comment that I have seen and been around trainers that claim to use purely possitive reinforcement methods on "very aggressive dogs" and the fact of the matter is they just simply do not know what true aggression in an animal looks like.

They are working with dogs that are biting out of prey response .... chase prey, catch prey, though the prey happened to be a child. Or a dog that wants to "go after" smaller dogs and has no reaction to same size or larger dogs, or are working with fear aggression. NOT true full blown dominant aggressive I will eat your face for telling me no, kind of dogs.

They are taking "aggression" to mean any use of teeth by an animal on another thing, whether it is mouthing(not a real bite) or an over excited dog in prey drive that is being teased with a ball by a small child that then takes off running, screaming, waving its arms with the ball in hand (and not being supervised by an adult) And I am not saying that a dog biting a child or anybody out of a prey response is an acceptable thing, but conditioning a dog to redirect when in prey with purely possitive is possible (depending on the dog and the other temperament factors) and I have done this myself. That of course is just one example of many I can think of where a prey response caused a bite.

I first started out thinking that love and tenderness could solve every problem. After working with a fear aggressive dog utlizing possitive methods no corrections I thought that just bonding with and being kind to a dog using treats and toys could solve any problem.

Well, a handler aggressive dominant female rottweiler taught me a lesson. Treats don't matter. Toys don't matter. Kind words don't matter. Commands don't matter. Very few things of a possitive nature even cause a blink of an eye to a truly aggressive, and dominant dog.

If you are stuck on a no correction mentality your only choice is to back down and in some cases backing down is all you can do if you do not have the proper equipment and safety is a serious issue. When you back down, you are essentially admitting your low rank, you are being submissive. Some DA dogs will cool it, depending on the situation - because you backed down, you are no longer a threat in need of energy to subdue.

You can WORK WITH a DA dog being PP, absolutely. As long as you never challenge that dog you can seem to be best friends to the inexperienced eye. You can coax a DA dog with treats and toys and good things when it is not in drive and get good results as long as you never become an authority threat to that dog, BUT you have not solved anything.

I have seen the look at me game put towards dog aggression. Teaching a dog that every time it sees another dog it must redirect its attention to you because you are the holder of some absolutely incredible reward. Conditioning a dog that when other dogs are present, and only when other dogs are present, if it looks at you it gets a very high value reward, is not eliminating the aggression, it is merely redirecting the reaction/response of the dog when you are there holding that dogs leash. But these were not handler aggressive dogs, and these were dogs whose food and toy/prey drive was stronger than their aggression towards other dogs/animals.

With all of that said, it is PURELY 100% ONLY my opinion based on my experiences learning what works and what does not when dealing with aggressive dogs. The trainers I mentioned, I do not think that all trainers are that way, but of the 7 I have come across and watched work that tried to sell their zero-correction based "aggression rehab" techniques, that is what I observed.

EDIT: Ah I took so long to post that I did not know anyone else had posted, will go back and read what everyone else has said, perhaps I have been redundant and will repost