I'm curious as to why a dog wouldn't want to bite the leg sleeve...he has no trouble biting the sleeve, he has no trouble biting the upper body jacket but when it comes to getting him to bite the leg he just doesn't really wanna. He'll look at the leg, nip it a bit then focus back on the arm. I'm guessing training will work this out but I just wonder what the dog is thinking. I mean this dog love the bite, why differentiate between one bite or another? Isn't a bite, a bite?

No, a bite isn't a bite. He is comfortable with the sleeve because it is what he knows and there is a different motion involved in making him want to bite an arm vs a leg. He now needs to learn the leg. Reward immediately for biting so he starts to get the idea and build confidence that he is doing the right thing, then once he gets the idea you can start to look for those full bites. As confidence increases, the grip will increase.

Imagine you're fighting a man a bit bigger than you. When you're standing you're almost facing him at eye level
Imagin taht you're lying on your belly still fighting that same man and you look up into his eyes. That same man seems a giant to you. You need solid nerves to keep on with the same strength

Same with a dog a man towering over him is very intimidating for the dog.

This being said my dog is intimidated by the decoy when in the leg and bites better on the arm but... He goes for the leg st$**$$ B$$é€d

Greetings

Johan

I can see what you are saying Johan, it definitely makes sense, kind of a more vulnerable place to be for the dog. I did have one issue with your reply though..


This being said my dog is intimidated by the decoy when in the leg and bites better on the arm but... He goes for the leg st$**$$ B$$é€d
Am I an idiot or should I recognize that last part??lol

A lot of dogs are unsure and undecisive when faced with a new challenge until they become comfortable. Is the decoy presenting the leg correctly? And are you handling the dog right when you are doing leg bites?

The decoy needs to take the arms out of the equation when presenting the leg. The arms should be behind the decoy's back and his upper body should be kept as still as possible to keep the dog from targeting those areas. The leg should be moving in a manner that it triggers the dogs' prey drive for him to overcome targeting the arms and body.

You should be keeping the dog low by pushing down on the lead so that the dog has no chance to jump up for a high bite. Most times the dog will get a clue after a few sessions. Having the decoy go to the ground when the dog gets a good bite will give the dog more confidence and take some of the pressure off him if its still a problem.

Howard

 Quote: RobbinMann

Am I an idiot or should I recognize that last part??lol

Don't bother only ranting on my dog. After 4 months he still goes for the leg if possible

Johan, So he does like the leg bites then? Sounds like he has a tad bit more experience than my boy. We've only had six sessions, so I am comforted in knowing that this is something he will overcome and learn to like doing.

+1 to Howard's post.. only thing I would add is that frustration (on the dog's part) will help make the transition. In some ways you are going back to basics.

 Quote: Howard Knauf

The decoy needs to take the arms out of the equation when presenting the leg. The arms should be behind the decoy's back and his upper body should be kept as still as possible to keep the dog from targeting those areas. The leg should be moving in a manner that it triggers the dogs' prey drive for him to overcome targeting the arms and body.

You should be keeping the dog low by pushing down on the lead so that the dog has no chance to jump up for a high bite. Most times the dog will get a clue after a few sessions. Having the decoy go to the ground when the dog gets a good bite will give the dog more confidence and take some of the pressure off him if its still a problem.

Bingo. This is pretty much how i helped another handler train his dog to bite legs. Back tie your dog and have the decoy step in to the dogs territory and get him into prey drive with just the leg, only get into his territory to the point where he can get the leg and nothing else, also invest in a Velcro leg wrap so the dog can easily win it off of the decoy.

I have not trained my dog this way mainly for personal reasons.

 Quote: Johan Engelen

Imagine you're fighting a man a bit bigger than you. When you're standing you're almost facing him at eye level
Imagin taht you're lying on your belly still fighting that same man and you look up into his eyes. That same man seems a giant to you. You need solid nerves to keep on with the same strength

Same with a dog a man towering over him is very intimidating for the dog.

Eh, i am going to have to go the other way on this one. To me leg bites are... not weak just not something i am fond off.

The way i see it is when the dog is biting a leg he is avoiding facing the decoy, he is just taking all the dogs frustration out on the leg rather then coming up and facing the decoy. I rather have my dog having eye contact with the decoy when he is attacking rather then biting a leg and ignoring the decoy himself.

It's interesting the many different views on this subject..equally interesting how each of the views discussed make sense, in their own way, to me.

My trainers take on this was kind of along the same lines as Johans, that a dog going for the leg is putting himself in a vulnerable position and a dog that isn't willing to do this will be more difficult to train to take the leg bite. I can certainly see where having his head facing down would be a vulnerable thing because the decoy or perp could then use his hands to crush the dogs skull with a tire iron or something...

He also mentioned that a straight bite is much more natural and comfortable for a dog to take on the arm or upper body than on the leg, the head having to turn itself sideways to clamp onto the leg, thus putting the dog in a position where his neck is twisted sideways might (imo) cause injury to the dog if the perp is seriously fighting the dog. I had no idea how many dogs actually can snap their spines or retain some serious kind of injury just from the decoys not catching the dog correctly. In a real life situation, we all know the guy isn't concerned with how he catches the dog on his bare arm! For me, injury to my dog is the last thing (next to my being killed, of course) that I would want. Scaring the whohaw out of the guy and making him want to get out of there are the primary effects I am wanting. Like you said, we really need to differentiate what the dog is going to be used for. A police K9 that has to APPREHEND someone is an entirely different story compared to a PERSONAL PD.

Still, in any event, the training needs to be there so the dog can learn to counter in any way he can to protect both himself and the handler.

Another thing my trainer mentioned is that dogs do have their own preferences as to what they prefer to bite. This is where the TRAINING comes into play.

Great discussion!