In another thread here i think i might of gotten off topic a bit. Anyhow it seems to me some people are all about leg bites over arm bites or vice versa and body bites fall somewhere in the middle.

I know there are a lot of reasons for each method and some of those reasons are valid and some are completly bogus.

When it comes to LEO work or protection work i am not a fan of the leg bites. I just think it just makes the situation more dangerous. Yes a leg bite would trip up some one running but it still leaves the both suspects hands completly free to do what they want.

My reasoning for the arm (and armpit) bits is that this will also take a suspect down to the ground, and if not i will put money down that the suspect would at least stop. That being said it also disables one of the suspects arm, if your lucky it could be the suspects good arm.

As far as body bites goes (chest, back, side) these are useful if the dog can not get to a arm.

Anyhow these are just my views. Hopefully we can get some more people to chime in and i would love to hear from people who have real experience with a live bite.

Shoot. Can this be moved to Protection for Adult Dogs please?

Hi Michael,

I'm not a handler myself (yet), but have seen plenty of live bites. In the UK the police GP dogs are ONLY trained to take the arm. If they consistantly take other parts of the body they have to be re-certified to ensure they will take the arm - otherwise they are 'too dangerous'.

This I believe was one of the problems encountered using Malis - they learnt that taking the leg/body/head was effective!

However, the 'fulcrum' effect of taking an arm will often take down an offender, the dogs weight throwing them off balance. And as you said, having a dog hanging off one arm means they can't grab a weapon in that hand - which can only be a good thing.

It's also a lot easier for a dog to get a proper hold on an arm, even if your suspect is wearing a thick jacket. A torso bite might mean they only get clothing.

Overall, the arm I think is the most effective option. Glad to hear some other views though!

Rob

Michael,

From what I remember, even the 'Firearms Dogs' used by the Specialist Teams go for the arm. Not many people can shoot you or stab you using their legs!

Anything that reduces the possibility of a suspect using a weapon HAS to be the way to go, in real world situations.

Rob

In my experience, the majority of actual bites are on the back of the leg and the hands. From people really believing they can outrun the dog. Generally it's just plain stupidity. Where the dog bites is more a training issue and an availability issue. Meaning, I hope the dog grabs the first thing he has a chance to grab. Training for the perfect bite is fine, actual scenarios rarley offer the perfect opportunity for the perfect bite. It's not often a real scrote turns, faces the dog and feeds and arm. It's rare the real scrote is running a straight line away from the dog for that good looking shoulder bite. Until you've seen a man grab a dog that had a great looking chest bite, with both hands and hold the dog away from him, not everyone is scared of dogs. At any rate, that's why there is a handler, it is a dog team after all.

DFrost

My dog is being trained as a PPD. He has taken many leg bites, both on the leg sleeve as well as on the leg of the body suit. I want him to feel confident and be efficient with a leg bite but of course don't want him only focused on a leg bite.

I've seen that he prefers an arm or upper body bite (underarm, chest, back) but I want him to be confident to bite whatever part of the body. I can't think of a scenario off the top of my head that would call for a leg bite, well, maybe if some guy tries to kick me (or my dog). If that would happen I want him to feel perfectly fine about chomping down hard on a leg, then redirecting to the arm or upper body if necessary.

He's shown that he will bite the leg when it comes at him, then immediately redirect to the offending arm or somewhere on the upper body when the decoy raises his arm to strike me or him. He does this on his own, and I like that he's paying attention to the fight and confident enough to bite wherever necessary at the time.

Not sure if you all agree with this or not, but it makes sense to me for a PPD. He's probably never going to be sent after someone like a K9 or MWD and any attack that would go on would more than likely be close quarters and fast, I want him confident to bite anywhere and at the same time pay attention to what the arms are doing. Of course, I would send him out if the guy is running away then turns to shoot at me. This is the only scenario that I can think of right now where I would send my dog out. He's being trained to run a guy down too.

So basically it's important to me is that he is absolutely confident in biting anywhere and redirecting during the fight when necessary, for his protection and for mine.

 Quote: David C.Frost

In my experience, the majority of actual bites are on the back of the leg and the hands. From people really believing they can outrun the dog. Generally it's just plain stupidity. Where the dog bites is more a training issue and an availability issue. Meaning, I hope the dog grabs the first thing he has a chance to grab. Training for the perfect bite is fine, actual scenarios rarley offer the perfect opportunity for the perfect bite. It's not often a real scrote turns, faces the dog and feeds and arm. It's rare the real scrote is running a straight line away from the dog for that good looking shoulder bite. Until you've seen a man grab a dog that had a great looking chest bite, with both hands and hold the dog away from him, not everyone is scared of dogs. At any rate, that's why there is a handler, it is a dog team after all.

DFrost

Completely agree. Of course just because you are training for a arm bite or a shoulder bite does not mean you are going to get it. I train my dog to bite anywhere on the body (besides the head). But i only train him biting on the leg and body to show him he can bite there and not that it is what his goal should be. The thing is why train for a substandard area when you can train for a more effective spot.

And you nailed it on the head with your last sentence. I would expect the handler to be no more then a few seconds.

I don't know how it works in the US or elsewhere, but in the UK the dog has to take the arm (or at least be trained to). If it takes elsewhere, the incident is investigated, and eventually could lead to the dog being destroyed if it keeps biting elsewhere. Them's the rules.........

Obviously, it's not going to be a perfect face-on bite most of the time, which is why an arm bite will still take down a fleeing suspect. And a bite elsewhere is still a bite, which CAN be justified here - just not everytime.

Logically, the dog having hold of one arm/hand/wrist means that the bad guys can't use that hand for attacking the dog or the handler. From a personal safety viewpoint, that has to be best.

Good discussion though!

Just to clarify a small point - I'm talking about working police K9s here. The very thought of responsible citizens having personal protection dogs here would have the polititians wetting their pants.

It's bad enough they took all our legally held pistols away

If it were MY dog in the US or elsewhere, I'd like it to be confident in biting anywhere, but I'd prefer it still to focus on the arms.

HTH

Rob

I have discussed leg bites at length with a police k9 handler friend in Holland, and worked 2 of their dogs on the leg with a jute/leather suit.

One of the reasons they use leg bites is with issues they've had during soccer riots. People put stuff under their jackets to injure police dogs that go for the arms. Also, being a cold country, there are lots of thick jackets and winter clothing being worn. Less protection in the legs. Ofcourse, having felt these dogs bite on a suit, I don't think thick winter clothing would be an issue! But still, who wears pants that are as thick as jackets and sweaters?

The dogs I worked were biting me behind the knee. Out of every dog, sport, police, "ppd", GSD, Mal, GSD/Mal mix, etc that I have ever worked, I had never experienced this type, or "style", of bite and the amount of pain that this dog inflicted THROUGH THE BODY SUIT. The dog bit full, CRUSHINGLY hard (could not walk properly for 4 days and had trouble driving home), and shoved himself into the bite (pushing, rather than pulling/tugging) trying to dominate the decoy as best he could. I could not walk properly while wearing the suit because the dog was pushing me forward so hard, constantly digging in deeper. Had I not been wearing a suit, I would be down on the ground screaming like a lil girl trying not to move so the dog wouldn't rip my leg completely open (I know this, because while in the suit, I was trying not to move my leg too much so it'd hurt a bit less ).

This success with leg bites is a combination of cultural circumstance, as well as the right dogs for it to be extremely effective. I think having the right dog is a very important part of it.

Naturally, the dogs are not taught exclusively to bite in the leg, and obviously a dog should bite what is available for them to bite, but if I remember correctly, it is their preference to go for the legs for many reasons, including the ones stated above.