if this isn't a good topic for discussion, my apologies.

i was reading this site: http://www.secondchanceranch.com/training/raw_meat/index.html b/c the thread about turkeys reminded me i'd once heard turkeys were bad b/c their bones splintered easily, so i've never fed any turkey but ground.

anyways, it fascinated me.

but it got me thinking - over in a canoeing forum i'm on, whether or not people treat the water is a regular topic. i deliberately drink untreated water on a relatively regular basis (not all the time) so that i will have continual exposure to bacteria etc in the water.

to be honest, i kind of approach the dog's food the same way. i'm sure there's stuff on their raw chicken - but their immune systems seem to be holding fine and i think it's good that they are exposed regularly. i think exposure, and handling the exposure, is the sign of a good immune system.

....but i avoided science-type stuff as much as possible, so i'm not exactly coming from an authoritative position here

of the raw feeders on here, do people worry about stuff like salmonella/e coli?

who worries about bones? and not just the big bones, but the little chicken ones? do people grind everything to avoid bone issues?

the site makes comments that wolves eat the whole animal and that the fur or feathers function as protective lining. i have heard this before. actually, it makes me curious - one thing i wonder is, if you could feed a whole animal - fur and all - to one of the dogs and if they'd get how to eat it.

i thought the site was a little hysterical anti-raw (i mean, 'pro-BARFers' setting up anti-BARF websites to attack people against from seems so....involved.

anyways, just curious as to people's takes, on the site, and on the issues of bacteria and the danger of bones. i know i did introduce bones EXTREMELY slowly and the dogs never eat anything w/bones, be it chicken wings or fish, without me supervising the whole thing. but i still like to feed them.

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but it got me thinking - over in a canoeing forum i'm on, whether or not people treat the water is a regular topic. i deliberately drink untreated water on a relatively regular basis (not all the time) so that i will have continual exposure to bacteria etc in the water.

This counts for parents of kids too. Ever notice that the parents who are obsessive about disinfecting everything 4 times a day have kids who are sick more often than the ones who's parents just do a normal cleaning routine? How is the immune system going to get stronger if everything is sanitized to Operating Room sterility?

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if you could feed a whole animal - fur and all - to one of the dogs and if they'd get how to eat it.

I know Malinois breeders that toss down a whole rabbit for their pups. They eat it just fine.

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who worries about bones? and not just the big bones, but the little chicken ones? do people grind everything to avoid bone issues?

It always amuses me when people are so panicky about feeding bones. Just feed the damn things already, they're dogs! There's nothing to think about. People are just too brainwashed with BS.

Hi Jennifer. Part of our acceptance of how our dogs "eat raw" since we changed up what's "In The Bowl" came from observing the back yard. You ask about dogs eating whole animals including skin, fur, etc. Our dogs have free run - much of the time - of about 6 wooded acres. Squirrel, possum, certain birds, moles, etc. are "regular items" on the buffet that they catch on their own.

Of course we didn't really pay attention to the natural prey as "food" when we were still feeding crap in a bag. But once we started considering raw feeding, and the "warnings" you talk about (salmonella, e-coli, etc.), we realized our dogs are eating this way anyway, whenever they have the choice to do so. And they don't get sick. And they somehow deal with the fur. (LOL-I don't WANT to mentally record all those details!) And they are healthier this way.

Hope this helps!

Beth

hmmm....and i always think how much i'd love for them to have meals complete with fur - i take it the visuals are unfortunate then?

rabbits would be a perfect size, but i don't know if the dogs (esp. teagan) are smart enough to connect a dead rabbit visually and olfactorily with those things in the living room she keeps trying to kill - would that reinforce her predatory behaviour towards them? probably not. (not that i think eating raw makes them more prey driven, just that they might connect the dead of the species with the living of the same species)

mike, i think you're right - we've become a society frightened of germs.

it's strange too, people eat raw meat and nobody freaks out about it.

so nobody here grinds their bones? when i first started feeding raw i was told i was going to have to get a meat grinder to deal with the bones (i was like 'how much counter space do you think i have!?'), but i've been amazed and thrilled to watch how well the dogs can handle large bones (seriously, i've filmed luc eating big bones, but never posted it, b/c nobody but me is going to be interested in that).

there's actually a free-range chicken place not too far outside of the city that sells pre-ground chicken (meat and bones) - i always mean to go, but then i think 'but they need their non-ground bones for their teeth!'.

Several forum members grind some of what they feed.

Owners of seniors with dental problems are one group. Also, one member (at least) bought a grinder so he could include variety that has bones he wouldn't otherwise give.... and I want to get one too. :> I personally have some of the weight-bearing RMBs I buy ground by the butcher; I feed the front end of big birds as is and the back end ground up. (It's free.) But that's just me.... CERTAINLY not anything that I think anyone else needs to do.

I want my dogs to have the bones -- the chewing, the exercise -- but if someone else is too worried about bones to feed raw without grinding, then I'm never going to fault that. It's still fresh, real food.

As for pathogens: they are a possibility with any diet. But dogs and humans have very different digestive systems, and their short system and very caustic stomach acid is nothing like our long (plenty of time for pathogens to colonize) one.

As Mike says: They're dogs!

I think Connie about summed it up. I know my dog would eat a rotting carcass on the side of the road, so I'm not too worried about giving her chicken that I've washed. I worry more about cleaning my counter surfaces and cutting boards than about what happens to the dogs.

Bones bones bones...I was convinced the first time I saw my dogs bowel movements after eating a chicken wing. There was not a single fragement that could be recognized as bone. Sure there are small chunks, but nothing that looks even remotely "undigested". I think splinters are a potential danger, but I've had my dogs get kibble stuck in their throats and spend five minutes walking around trying to hurk it up...there's inherent danger in everything.

 Quote: Jennifer Mullen

.. there's actually a free-range chicken place not too far outside of the city that sells pre-ground chicken (meat and bones) - i always mean to go, but then i think 'but they need their non-ground bones for their teeth!'.

Still, nice sign that the market exists. I'm optomistic! :>

 Quote: david eagle

Bones bones bones...I was convinced the first time I saw my dogs bowel movements after eating a chicken wing. There was not a single fragement that could be recognized as bone. Sure there are small chunks, but nothing that looks even remotely "undigested". I think splinters are a potential danger, but I've had my dogs get kibble stuck in their throats and spend five minutes walking around trying to hurk it up...there's inherent danger in everything.

Oh, I probably should've clarified that my own bone worries are strictly of the dental variety..... and only because of my granddog who fractured a molar on a raw bone.

I don't worry much about the digestion part, once they have those bone-processing enzymes going. Anything is possible, I know, but the dangers of commercial grain-foods trump the dangers of fresh species-appropriate food, for me, by a LOT.

 Quote: David Eagle

I think Connie about summed it up. I know my dog would eat a rotting carcass on the side of the road, so I'm not too worried about giving her chicken that I've washed.

you're supposed to wash it?????? seriously?????


connie - i'm more careful with the big bones now since oscar broke his tooth and natalya posted it about it, since luc is a bit of a chomper.

I don't think it's a requirement, but my prep process includes washing because the sink is my initial staging area. It's already there, why not, right?