I would like to hear someone explain or compare stress levels in a dog that is being worked civily and defensively without the handler being in sight. Also the same scenerio with the handler within sight or next to and coaching the dog.

Dogs are pack animals. They will look to their "pack" for support of their behavior. If the dog is working with the handler right there he is being supported by his "pack". On his own he has to work on his own with no support. The stress level this creats varies for each dog based on several things. The age of the dog, the expecience level of the dog , the confidence level of the dog, and in some cases how "hard" the dog is. In a hard dog that looks less to a handler for support, this will be less stressful than with a soft dog that needs lots of support from the handler.

Working dogs this way was common to start older dogs by "posting them to start. The problem is it is based on defense and a fight or flight situation to get the dog to start training. There are better methods to start a dog, even an older dog.

Mr. Cannon, what are some of the better ways to start your dog? I have a 1 year old rott. I want to do the best things for him. Thank you

Prey Drive, Prey Drive, Prey Drive!!!!

I liked the tapes Bite Training Puppies and the first Steps in Bite Training. From what I am reading the Flinks tape sounds good too, but I haven't seen it.

I am more and more convinced that it is better to start puppies young and work them in a lot of prey drive and move to defense later. The dogs I have seen woked this way demonstrate more confidence for the work. I think the same things can be done with an adult. The old methods I have used were for adult dogs. We waited on training untill the dog was old enough to take some defense to start them out. I have run into 2 problems. First by waiting that long many of the dogs have been taught that that type of behavior isn't acceptable, so they have to be re-trained that being aggressively is ok. Defense requires some confidence on the part of the dog. The dog may be confused and shut down temporarily or permenantly. You may end up with a dog that won't work or will only work in defense. These things are avoided by making all of this fun to start. If the dog sees it as a game he will gain confidence and learn the technique of making the bites and then when defense is introduced the dog is only dealing with the defense rather than also dealing with the proper bite technique and trying to gain confidence at the same time.

glenn:

I have seen some pretty good dogs fold as soon as the handler leaves sight. Take a look at blind work on weaker dogs. They are consintaly looking around for the handler to appear. Only then does the bark sound strong.

Vince, what you say makes perfect sense but personally I would not consider a dog "GOOD" or even "pretty good" if he folds everytime the handler is not within site. Probably going to get alot of flack on this and I'll again admit I'm not an expert. It just seems to me that a "GOOD" dog would have been brought along in training at a pace that would be consistant with building and reinforcing strong confidence, therefore allowing this dog to preform with or without the handler being in sight.

I did not say this in my first post but when I was asking the questions I was thinking more about a dog being put to test in real life situations, "on the street" "out on a country road" kind of thing not so much with being on a Schutzund field with a man in any type of training gear. Basically out doing several different drills on unfamiliar turf and using different agitators.

Glen,

In a lot of cases you can fix this with a dog through experience. I have seen several dogs that started requireing alot of handler support slowly mature to working on their own.

If I understand what you are saying then maturity plays a big role in the dog having enough confidence to work unattended by it's helper. Thanks Richard. I hope I understood you're point.

What is the best way to deem your dog mature? Are there different levels of maturity? My dog is a 1 year old Rott. I understand Rottweilers are slower to mature than some other dogs. What should I look for when he starts to come into his own?

Glen,

By maturing I was thinking more along the lines of experience in doing the protection work rather than just age. With experience you can make the dog more comfortable that he will always win w/ or w/o the handler.

Rottnvegas,

Watch the behavior with the dog. In most cases the dog will tell you what they are ready for. They will seem bored and get lacksidaisical in things they were sharp on before. If you are attempting to move them forward in the training they will seem overly anxious and nervous about the new exercises.