Do trainers use a sleeve on the arms when teaching a dog in protection? I'm not talking the protection phase of Schutzhund, I'm only talking PPD training? I've heard that if you train a dog on a sleeve that he will only target a sleeve...if this is the case then why would a trainer use a sleeve in the beginning stages of protection? Granted, there is other training going on, such as leg and bite suit..I am just confused about this issue.

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Do trainers use a sleeve on the arms when teaching a dog in protection?

Yes. And in later stages too. It depends on the situation.

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I've heard that if you train a dog on a sleeve that he will only target a sleeve...if this is the case then why would a trainer use a sleeve in the beginning stages of protection?

People who believe that drive me nuts.

 Quote: Mike J Schoonbrood

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Do trainers use a sleeve on the arms when teaching a dog in protection?

Yes. And in later stages too. It depends on the situation.

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I've heard that if you train a dog on a sleeve that he will only target a sleeve...if this is the case then why would a trainer use a sleeve in the beginning stages of protection?

People who believe that drive me nuts.

This is pretty common in the dog world these days. It does kind of make sense, actually. When a dog is ONLY using a sleeve then I csn see a dog getting conditioned to ONLY bite a sleeve but when you are doing other stuff, i.e. using bite suit/leg sleeve etc then the dog wouldn't get conditioned for just the sleeve. Still, this came up in conversation and I was given the impression that trainers that use an arm sleeve for protection aren't doing it correctly. Thus the reason for my question.

 Quote: RobbinMann

This is pretty common in the dog world these days. It does kind of make sense, actually. When a dog is ONLY using a sleeve then I csn see a dog getting conditioned to ONLY bite a sleeve but when you are doing other stuff, i.e. using bite suit/leg sleeve etc then the dog wouldn't get conditioned for just the sleeve. Still, this came up in conversation and I was given the impression that trainers that use an arm sleeve for protection aren't doing it correctly. Thus the reason for my question.

Of course if the only training tool you use is the sleeve of course your dog is going to be equipment dependent. You need to mix it up between the sleeve, bite suite, and muzzle work, among other training scenarios.

My question is, the people who say if you use a sleeve you are not doing it correctly, in there mind what is the correct way?

I hear all sorts of kooky things. Usually it involves starting a dog in defense with no prey or learning foundation.

 Quote: Mike J Schoonbrood

I hear all sorts of kooky things. Usually it involves starting a dog in defense with no prey or learning foundation.

Mike, I'm curious, just what would that entail? Are you talking about putting the dog under pressure and forcing him to get aggressive or are you just meaning that no sleeve work or obedience is done in the beginning, what exactly does it mean?

 Quote: RobbinMann

 Quote: Mike J Schoonbrood

I hear all sorts of kooky things. Usually it involves starting a dog in defense with no prey or learning foundation.

Mike, I'm curious, just what would that entail? Are you talking about putting the dog under pressure and forcing him to get aggressive or are you just meaning that no sleeve work or obedience is done in the beginning, what exactly does it mean?

Must have been a stupid question..huh?

Hey I'm what, 6, 7, 8, 9 hours ahead of you? I need my beauty sleep too :p

Defense before Prey = pressuring the dog to bite out of stress/fear/self preservation. I have seen it done to lots of varying degrees. Some examples:

Tie the dog to a tree, whip the dog into avoidance till he bites and learns that biting the bad guy will make him go away.

Tie the dog to a post and flank him till he wraps himself around the post panicking, then shows aggression because he has no alternative.

Work at night and have someone approach and threaten at a distance to make the dog alert, then build this up till the dog is biting the bad guy to make him submit.

I've even heard of handlers taking a young dog, and getting into a fight with the decoy (as in the handler fighting the decoy) and wait for the puppy to join in with the fight.

It goes in varying degrees, but alot of PPD folks are strongly opposed to prey/sleeve foundations. Usually its just about a complete lack of understanding of dog psychology, or perhaps they just haven't worked with dogs are any good, and need to work defensively or they won't work at all.

Sounds like a great way to develop an out of control powder keg to me!

 Quote: Mike J Schoonbrood

It goes in varying degrees, but alot of PPD folks are strongly opposed to prey/sleeve foundations. Usually its just about a complete lack of understanding of dog psychology, or perhaps they just haven't worked with dogs are any good, and need to work defensively or they won't work at all.

And those types are the PPD providers that potential clients should avoid like a case of Herpes.