I'm sure some of you have worked dogs like this in the past. This is the scenario. We are training in French Ringsport, have been working in prey with tugs for 6 months and have graduated to the bite suit within the last month.

Our FR coach has started to add obedience now to the bites on the suit. This is a new thing for her as the has been able to run her own show having fun while building confidence for the last while being vocal and a nut. She has unbridled over the top drive to go for the bite. All the experienced people in the club love it, to me the drive is somewhat embarrassing but I'm the greenhorn and I trust my coach and the senior club decoy so it has to be all good!

So yesterday we are introducing control now i.e. She has to be at heel and calm before she is allowed to bite. It is a face attack scenario where the decoy will move in while I have the dog held tight on a longer 3m line with a agitation collar so she can hit either leg as the decoy comes in.

The coach says don't let her out of heel and to keep trying to calm her drive to hit him down. So I keep pulling her back into heel position and trying to make her calm down by giving her leash pops and talking to her when she gets out of line. Though everytime the decoy moves a step she goes ape once again. Then the exercise is null and I have to pull her back and start trying to calm her down again.

This goes on for about 10 minutes I'm frustrated, she is frustrated. I reach down and grab the agitation collar to place her into heel again and to tell her knock off the over the top vocalisation. If she does that .. then she will get the bite!! (silly thing)

But I see her squirm and twist in the collar .. I can feel her hot breath and those tender Malinois teeth coming at my wrist, at the last nanosecond she decides to not follow through. Wheew ..

I saw it coming in slow motion, oddly I wasn't scared. I grabbed her and held her in heel until she mellowed and she did get her bite, the decoy really let her have at it and really tired her out, then thankfully the exercise was over. After she was tired out after the first long drawn out suspense to her first bite her obedience was a lot more controlled. We started to work on the defense of handler exercise.

When I questioned why she made a move at me, I figured it was a displacement behaviour. Both the coach, another trainer and the head decoy are saying it was displaced aggression. I understand that and I understand why we have to add the obedience into the bitework more and more. They also said that she didn't follow through biting me even though she wanted to bite someone/thing because her head was clear enough to still know that was a no no. (Thank my lucky stars) Still unnerving though.

The senior club members say that it is all about winning the mental game and not about me raising my voice at her or giving harsh corrections.

As I understand, and read here all the time of dogs that have come up the leash and nailed their handlers because of unfair treatment.

I totally understand that in having a over the top driven dog that you could prong the dog or stem it on a remote collar and it could still come up the leash at the handler.

Now that I've had the Tiger by the Tail and seen what it can do .. I do not want to get bit. Yesterday's session has made me open my eyes wide and a little cautionary.

So from a safety standpoint where should I be? What could I do to place myself in the safest situation possible working with a dog like this in that type of scenario?

Whoooweeee, I know what you are describing Geoff.

Question: Would displaced aggression be the same as "redirected"?
I have never heard displaced before that I can think of, so I am just wondering.

 Quote: carol boche

Question: Would displaced aggression be the same as "redirected"? I have never heard displaced before that I can think of, so I am just wondering.

Yeah that's what I meant .. We did a pile of OB this morning and afternoon. So she is all a big cuddly tiger with me now

I am not sure there is any other position to be in during an exercise like that.
I would be ready to raise up on the collar with the lead if she turns to come at you again.

And, you pretty much found out how much she is going to take before she does it.

When you have hold of the collar, make sure your hand is on the top of her neck so that if she twists, you can lift your arm up and away from her mouth.


Do you have a DD collar on her as a back up?

Sounds like you have done your training well. Good Job with handling and staying calm.

I'd trust her Geoff, she didn't hit you.
She could have. She didn't.
Good ground work on your part!

Randy

I'm not in FR or Schutzhund so I may be talking out of my butt here, but I wonder if this is something that might stop happening once she learns the rules (control)?

I guess I'm wondering if maybe this (the redirected aggression/frustration) is more common in green dogs. If so, then maybe you've already had the worst of it...

As I said, I know nothing about the sport and could easily be totally off base, but it seems logical to me, and if so...then it might make you feel better. I'll be interested in hearing the responses to this.

 Quote: geoff empey

As I understand, and read here all the time of dogs that have come up the leash and nailed their handlers because of unfair treatment.

Yeah, but that's not the same thing as redirected aggression and it doesn't seem like that's what happened here, based on what you described. It really does sound like redirected aggression, which IS something I've had experience with. Still a little freaky, isn't it? You don't always see it coming...

 Quote: carol boche

Question: Would displaced aggression be the same as "redirected"?
I have never heard displaced before that I can think of, so I am just wondering.

I think so, Carol, only when I've heard of displaced aggression it was in terms of human psychology.

You fast typers, you...

No I don't have a DD collar .. I haven't felt a need to get one before now. Though even if she had one on with a tab, it happened so fast I'd really doubt that I'd be able to stop a bite follow through.

She had a prong on with a tab but if I hung her with that I know it would just amp her up more and escalate the situation.

I just held her front paws off the ground with the handle of the agitation collar until she mellowed a smidgeon, as pointless as that was. She still pulled the decoy down once she got her bite she wanted him so bad. 30pts!!

Thanks Randy, you are right she didn't connect. I do trust her, but I have a lot of respect for her too knowing what she is capable of. It has to be a 2 way street. I just want to be sure of my own safety and the safety of others around me.

Yeah Geoff,
I should have added:
It's all easy to say from here! You're the one whose hand gets in the way.
She sounds very good though. When is the next session? I'm with Amber, bet it's part of the learning curve for the dog.
After all, she knew better the first time round.
Good ground work Geoff!
Congrads.
Randy

 Quote: Amber Morgan

I'm not in FR or Schutzhund so I may be talking out of my butt here, but I wonder if this is something that might stop happening once she learns the rules (control)?

I guess I'm wondering if maybe this (the redirected aggression/frustration) is more common in green dogs. If so, then maybe you've already had the worst of it...

As I said, I know nothing about the sport and could easily be totally off base, but it seems logical to me, and if so...then it might make you feel better.

Amber thanks for the response, you are correct we did move into the defense of handler exercise after her little crap show .. She was tired out and it was all easy peasy once the control was established.

So to me yes once the rules of engagement are established it should (I hope) get easier. This was a new rule we introduced yesterday for her and for me. I was frustrated by her actions, but obviously she was more frustrated by not being able to do her normal prey drive thing.

The senior people in the club are very excited by her potential, so I trust them to do the right thing for both the dog and me.