I got some bad news about my health recently and it has made me have to really think about what is best for Garm, who has had a lot of dominance problems. I learned that if I want to have a baby at all I will have to have one relatively soon. We had always planned on having a baby, but had been waiting for the right time. Since I'm not pregnant yet, that gives me some time to plan what will happen and try to prepare Garm for whatever is necessary. I currently feel that the best thing is to find Garm a new home that doesn’t have children in the house. If any of you have better ideas on how we can keep our dog without putting the child in danger, I’m listening. Our personal trainer is doing what he can to teach us to deal with him and there has been a lot of progress. But, although Garm might be ok with me and my husband at home and our adult friends, I’m pretty sure it would be a mistake to have him near a baby. I was reading what the Leerburg articles said about dogs and children and this only further convinced me that Garm would be dangerous around young children.

Garm is definitely a dominant dog with a very nervous temperament. I have read up on it on this site and in other books, so I know what to do generically for a dominant dog. I took Garm to obedience training and am currently having him privately trained in my own home for his dominance issues. He has become a very good dog, but he does have some pretty major flaws that can’t be ignored and haven’t been eliminated by the usual methods. He has been responding well to the training, but it is pretty evident that he needs to be handled very carefully and is not to be trusted around children.

Garm seems like such a happy and playful dog until he is poked at too much or gets frightened (which is very easy to do) then, if he doesn’t run away with his hackles raised, he snarls and bites with little warning. Since there isn't much warning, there is no clear indication to a child that they should stop pestering him, and I keep thinking that this is a time bomb waiting to go off. He’s never been abused, so I don’t think it can properly be called "fear biting". Usually it happens when there is nothing for him to be scared of at all and you simply try to do something that he doesn't like. It's more of a “How dare you!” sort of bite. The way a dog might correct another dog. Although, he also seems to have a very nervous temperament as well and any loud noise or oddity will set him off. He often wakes up snarling as if he had a nightmare. Or, if he were dozing and something startled him he might yelp loudly and take off running into a wall.

I know we could keep the dog and condemn it to a life of constantly wearing a muzzle, keeping him in the backyard unless I am ready to monitor his every move. Since I would have to devote much of my time to the child, Garm would have to pretty much be a backyard dog and I feel that is an unacceptable way to keep a dog.

So how does one go about preparing a dog for a new home? I’m worried that our other dog, Vidar, will not cope with the loss of his playmate very well. Is there something we can do to prepare Vidar? How do I make sure I find the best possible home for Garm? Classified adds are not the way to go. I need to make sure his new owners will understand all his special needs. I’ve probably got a year to plan for it before he absolutely must go. Does anyone have advice? Or, if you know of a better way to keep Garm than to make him suffer the cruel fate of being a backyard dog I would love to hear it.

UGH. Tough situation. From your description, Gram definitely sounds like he has some genetic issues . You could look at listing him w/rescues, as many have "special needs" dogs. How do you think he would adjust to life w/a different family? Does he warm up to people quickly once he realizes they are not a threat, or does he remain nervous?

How old was Gram when you got him? Has he always been this way? If not, have you had him THOROUGHLY vet checked? What you're describing w/the sleep problems worries me more than anything you'd describe as "dominant." Running into a wall b/c he was startled in his sleep? That's genetic. Not a good thing, and I think you're 100% correct to believe that he will not be trustworthy around children.

Would he have to be outside or could you separate him from them in the house? Is he ok w/other dogs? Maybe a childless or older couple w/another dog would make him feel secure?

First off, "fear biting" is a genetic problem, so it has nothing to do with whether or not he has been abused. Whether it is this or not I do not know, but just correcting a little misconception there

Second, there is nothing wrong with a dog being an outside dog. I have 4 dogs, 2 of them are kennel'd in the garage and 2 of them live in the house. Cujo can't be around Tiko or Yasko, and Tiko and Yasko are seperated from eachother. All 4 dogs are very happy and get their attention.

None of my dogs would be good around kids, and while I do not have any (other than when my nephews invade my house), I would not get rid of any of them when I do have kids. You can make these things work with a few basic changes to your lifestyle.

This is one of those situations where, you COULD keep the dog, and everyone could be very happy with whatever new arrangements you come up with, but it all comes down to "are you willing to put some effort into keeping your dog". If you have no issues with giving the dog up and feel he would do better in a different home then thats your right. If you are looking for a way to keep the dog as well as have a baby, there is no reason this isn't possible. There is no law that says "the toddler has to be able to play with the dog", you just need to make sure the toddler is unable to GET TO the dog. No muzzle neccesary, just make sure the back door is locked, make sure the dog is put up before you go outside with the baby, make sure that the dog can't get to where the baby is when you're not looking, build a good solid kennel run and make sure the yard is fenced properly.

I live with dogs who cannot be around eachother, and it is perfectly doable. Not quite comparable to a baby, but the principal is the same, it is just about establishing a new routine for who gets time when. With the use of a leash, good obedience training, supervision and house rules relating to doors and locks (like, don't leave the back door open so the dog can come in when the baby is on the living room floor) and you can make it work. When the baby is in bed at night and you are pretending that you have a minute to relax in front of the TV, let the dog in and hang out with you before bed. The dog can sleep in your bedroom if that's what you want, just make sure he understands a "stay" command so you can open your bedroom door and tend to the baby without him dashing out the bedroom door.

If you really really insist that you dont like the outside dog idea (and there is really nothing wrong with it at all, dogs love being outside), then you can always confine the dog to one room and make sure that he can't get to the baby when you are with the baby.

If you are sure you want to rehome the dog, then just do it. Ideally you should find someone who really wants the dog. Maybe someone who you know that will let you visit the dog? Make sure the dog goes to a caring home and be done with it.

It all depends how bonded you are with your dog in the first place. Naturally, baby's come before dogs, but if you love both then there is no reason they can't co-exist happily.

Just remember, dogs are not people. We all love our dogs, but a dog is happy with whatever situation you give him. He doesn't need a leather sofa and a TV, he is happier sniffing around and peeing on trees.

For Garm, living in the backyard would be horrible. Both Garm and Vidar are inside/outside dogs. They sleep outside in their kennel when it is warm out, but they come in the house and hang out with our friends and family the rest of the time. During the day time they are NEVER left alone for more than a few hours at a time unless it is unavoidable. But usually my friends will come to my house and the dogs will be lounging at our feet. Also, Garm is extremely active and needs to be doing something constantly. That is just the way Border Collies are. We actually really love that about him. Just having adequate exercise isn’t enough. He needs love and attention all day long and a sense of being one of the pack. Plus, I would just feel uneasy about having a potential threat to my child’s welfare living in our backyard. I want my kid to be able to play in the backyard too.

I do love Garm, but I think it would be better to give him up into a situation where he might be happy than to selfishly keep him and ostracize him from the house. If your dogs are happy living apart from one another and outdoors, then that’s fine. I just don’t think my dogs would handle that so well as they have been raised in a very social environment and they take great joy in being around people. Garm is good with most people, although he has on the rare occasion shown aggression to strangers that come to our house and once or twice has been upset by a strange person on our walks. I think if he were properly introduced to new owners he would be ok. I think Garm could be ok with another submissive dog like Vidar, although he does still have jealousy issues even with Vidar. Garm seems surprisingly good with our cats as he has learned to respect their claws from an early age. But he turns very aggressive when he meets small yapping dogs. I don’t think he sees them as dogs, but some little varmint that needs to be herded or killed.

We got Garm at 10 weeks old. We got to see one of his siblings (they were the last two) and met the mother (a Border Collie), as well as a dog they "claimed" was the father (a Catahula cattle dog), because Garm's sister looked just like a spotted Catahula. I am certain that Garm had a different father. When he was really little he was almost all black and had very little distinguishing markings. I had been expecting a dog that was around 40-50 lbs. at adult size like the two dogs that were supposed to be his parents. Now he's more like 90-100lbs. and he has the tan markings of a Rottweiler! It is obvious that he wasn’t part of a planned litter, so it is very likely that much of his problems stem from bad breeding. Anyway, Garm has always had an aggressive personality, but it seems to have gotten gradually worse as he got older.

It would make sense if Garm's behavior is genetic. I just didn't know that fear biting was genetic. I thought that was a learned behavior brought on by a trauma. Thanks for letting me know. I'm going to talk to my trainer about it and see what he says. He seems so convinced that Garm's problems are all dominance related. We may need to reevaluate the way we are dealing with Garm's problems. I expect that I will keep Garm for as long as I can and train him as well as I can so that he will be the best dog he can be when he goes on to his next home.

Thanks for the help. I'm going to look into some rescue organizations. I don't want to put him in a shelter, but I know some of them have courtesy listings. I did notice that most of them are for pure bred dogs. There's a Border Collie Rescue of California... but he doesn't look all that much like a Border Collie, even thought hat is probably the biggest percentage of what he is. Maybe I can find a Rescue for mutts.

Have you had the vet do a total work up for any possible problems, and if this is true anxiety or fear Biting is medication a possibility?

Your trainer would also be a possible resource for re-homing candidates, she may know some doggie educated people who would be able to love him and safely care for him.

I would also rehome rather than making any of mine strictly kennel or outside dogs. There is no question they would be much happier with new people who fit their needs rather than being put away from our family all the time.

Unless a dog is a true working dog and has intense stimulation and bonding time with their people or person i just dont see it as fullfilling to live alone in a yard or kennel. Especially if they have live with people or other dogs prior to being separated.

Man!! that is heart wrenching. I have heard that diet can sometimes contribute to odd behavior, what are you feeding Garm?
Maybe a rescue organization that would be willing to work with him. What breed is he?
What does your personal trainer say about it? Perhaps he knows of an older couple or someone who does not have children and would be willing to work with him.
I am sure you will get wonderful advise here on the forum.
God bless you and I pray your health improves and a baby will be soon on the way.

Hi Juliana,

I'm sorry to hear about your health issues. News like that can make everything seem very pressing, but try to relax. Time is on your side in this situation.

You are wise to be concerned about Garm's behavior and his volatile nature. From your description, I would definitely not trust him around a child. That being said, I think the work you are doing now with the trainer and the progress he is making may make you decide with some careful planning keeping Garm with your family just might work. And if not, the training you are instilling in him will make him a better candidate to be rehomed.

The thing which worries me is his startling from sleep and running into a wall. This does not sound like dominance but like a neurological problem. I've included a link for you to read about Canine Epilepsy; it's probably a long shot but if you recognize some of Garm's behavior in the article it might be worth mentioning to your vet.

http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/FAQ.html#anchor6012689

I wish I could help you more but only you and your husband can decide what is best for your situation and also Garm. Just remember you don't need to have answers or make any decisions immediately. Continue your work with the trainer and have Garm checked out by a vet if you haven't done so already. Goodluck.

Thanks for all the advice and words of encouragement. I don't think it's the food. I took some advice on the forum and found my dogs a really good food called Canidae. Since they've been eating it Garm (who used to have a chronic stink problem) now has a normal doggie smell and both dogs have been farting less (thank heaven!). I'll talk to my vet about possible neurological problems and medications. I'm going to see him on Wed. anyway because it's time for Vidar to get his shots again. After reading that FAQ about epilepsy in dogs I’m a little worried. Garm does act really bizarre when he is sleeping, but I guess I just figured he was dreaming. Vidar does it sometimes too, but not to the extent that Garm does. Vidar just looks like he’s having happy puppy dreams of chasing the cats that he isn’t supposed to chase in his mind. Garm looks like he’s having a nightmare, maybe about the pit bulls next door who are always picking fights with him. He will get very fidgety, starts shuttering, whimpering and growling and then it all culminates in him waking up very startled and either snarling savagely and leaping to his feet, or just running in a straight line with a terrified yelp. Then he’ll look disoriented for a moment and he’ll look up at me sleepily and wag his tail like nothing ever happened.

I don't know exactly what breed Garm is. I do know his mother was a Border Collie. Whether she was a pure blooded Border Collie, I have no idea, but I did get to see her and she did indeed look like one. Garm's markings and large size (he's working toward 100 lbs.) look like a Rottweiler and I met a woman who told me she had a dog that looked just like him and hers was half Rottweiler and Border Collie. So if I had to make a guess, I'd go with that combo.

My personal trainer thinks that Garm has dominance issues and he needs more training. I agree, but I'm wondering if that isn't ALL that the problem is. I'm sure there are plenty of dogs that have multiple problems overlapping that makes it confusing to assign a label to. I also think his high prey drive is not helping matters. I wish I could just read Garm's mind so I could know what he is thinking.

does he have a job?
does he get enough exercise?

carrying a pack during walks, or playing hide and seek with toys or objects,
If he is a border collie or aussie mix he might need more mental stimulation along with the physical stimulation. I just re-read and saw you think he might have some rottie in him, also a dog that needs plenty of exercise and does well with a job.

while it wont solve any health issues it might help cut down on some of the anxiety and quick temper and help you and the behaviorist work through the aggression.

I just wanted to throw out that my aunts cat has seizures, they are your typical jerky motor movement seizures, instead he gets confused and walks into things while also being nasty and aggressive and will attack completely unprovoked.
She had 2 trips to the ER before the vet figure it out. He is now on phenalbarbitol(sp?) daily and some sort of kitty valium for the Acute symptoms.

I dont know if dog seizures work the same way or not..but something to consider.


Edited by Jennifer Lee (01/08/2008 12:15 AM)
Edit reason: to add a bit

Well, I think he is pretty well exercised and stimulated, but with him I don't think you could ever give him too much stimulation. He's a smart dog and I know he's always thinking.
I never thought of having Garm carry a pack during walks. That might be a good idea. He could carry the water and the baggies. Mostly his job is fetch and that seems to be the thing that makes him most happy. He likes the repetition of having the ball thrown over and over and over... until he drops. I think he's a little OCD about it, frankly. If you let him outside he will immediately grab a tennis ball and ask you to throw it for him until he is tired of it. That can take a good half hour or more sometimes and I have to use a "chuck it" so that my arm doesn't fall off. He'll usually collapse and fall asleep after that, so I think he's getting in enough exercise. Though it is true that on the days he doesn't get enough exercise he is harder to deal with. We try to keep him tired so that doesn't happen. Plus he gets at least one walk in a day on top of the fetch and his general romp around the backyard with Vidar. He does have some agility routines although I have taken down his agility stuff since we've been using the backyard for other training purposes. We normally have a half dozen weave poles set up, some low jumps made of pvc pipes and a place for him to practice "table". He got to use the larger, more interesting equipment in his agility class, but at home we have a very minimal set up. Both dogs also have buster cubes to entertain them in the house on those rainy days. I was also trying to get him to learn the difference between notes on a flute, but I am still not sure that it is possible for him to distinguish all the notes on a recorder. He seems to be able to distinguish between the same word with different pitches, so I thought that the flute might be a fun game. I've never heard of anyone else doing it anyway. He could definitely tell the difference between three of them- He learned come, sit and lay down to those three notes, but he got confused when I tried to add on more notes and commands. Anyway, I try to be creative with Garm since I don't have any cattle for him to herd.