Puppy or Trained Dog
#174196 - 01/09/2008 10:24 PM |
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I am thinking about getting into schutzhund for about five years and wanted your opinion on a few things. I have had several GSDs which I have and continue to train mainly in obedience. I have also had a narcotics k9 in the past.
I am looking at two schuzhund clubs in the Madison, WI area and the Joliet, IL club.
What I wanted to know is if you think it is better to start with a puppy or purchase an older dog (somewhat trained) dog when you are new to the sport? I understand that it is less expensive to get a puppy and that the chances of being a champion are less. Of course, I am looking to do this for fun and dog training experience for my job. I also understand that any good import is going to be very expensive too.
I am about 1 1/2 years from getting a new dog (leaning towards a puppy) because I need to do some research on breeders and site visits. I also realize that I need to interview and attend the functions at both of the clubs. I realize that they could help with finding reputable breeders too. (Still out of state interviewing for a job.)
Sorry, I am being long winded...I just wanted your thoughts on what you think is best. Thank you in advance.
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Re: Puppy or Trained Dog
[Re: Heather Dzick ]
#174228 - 01/10/2008 08:17 AM |
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Feel free to PM me if you want!
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Re: Puppy or Trained Dog
[Re: Heather Dzick ]
#174235 - 01/10/2008 09:07 AM |
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8 week old Puppy:
6 months before you see what kind of potential the pup has, and that is just preliminary evaluation.
10 months before you can do any "real" training.
13-16 months before you can "show" in trial (for BH).
3 years before the dog is fully matured.
You get to put the dogs foundation, and know the dogs entire history. This can be good or bad, depending on how much you screw up.
You WILL screw up
You get to see your puppy grow up and take all credit for how he turns out, good or bad.
Lots of work, need lots of free time in your schedule for house breaking and the "puppy hell" phase.
Adult with basic training:
Can start immediately with training after initial bonding period.
Foundation should have already been done. This could be good or bad, although usually bad, because people who raise and sell adult dogs as green dogs just leave the dog in a kennel for their whole life and do the minimum.
Started in OB. This can be good or bad depending on how the OB was trained. If the pup is soft and trained by a heavy handed trainer, don't be surprised if your dog closes his eyes when you raise your hand to pet him, or doesn't look super happy in OB. If the OB was started correctly then you can pick up from where the previous owner left off.
Can start competing alot sooner.
Strong possibility that you will need to "re-train" the dog and fix problems.
If you go puppy: Research the lines, research the breeder, and see how the other dogs are doing from this breeder. A repeat breeding will give you some level of measurability to see what to expect from the litter against how the previous litter turned out.
If you go adult: Be very weary of about 99.9999999% of the people in the working dog business. There are more crap dogs than good, and alot of very good sales people who will convince you of whatever they want you to believe if you aren't experienced in reading the dogs yourself.
If you find a good adult then no problem. If you want total control over how the puppy was raised, then get a puppy.
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Re: Puppy or Trained Dog
[Re: Heather Dzick ]
#174244 - 01/10/2008 10:18 AM |
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Heather,
Hello! I will give you the .02 of someone that has been training a working line puppy in SchH for the past year at Joliet Schutzhund... ME. This is my first go around with training for SchH, and I would not change anything up to this point. I think that a puppy is the way to go for a few reasons...
1. The chances of a first time handler jumping into the sport and competing on the national level with their very first dog are miniscule at best. Normally people's first dog is a learning experience. Not that you cannot achieve titles, but club level competition is obviously different than national competition. Sounds like you want to have fun with a dog and learn (exactly what I want). Finding a champion puppy is a needle in a haystack. Finding a club level puppy is not that hard if you enlist the help of an experienced breeder with a clear cut picture of what you are looking for.
2. Raising a puppy for SchH is a wonderful learning experience. You get to learn all the RIGHT ways to teach bite foundation work, drive building, and early inductive obedience.
3. Finding a really good young adult that has had proper foundation training AND has actually been socialized and not screwed up is going to be hard and expensive.
4. If you are looking for your dog to be both a SchH dog and a companion that lives with you in the real world I could not shout PUPPY any louder. It is much easier to train the difference between field and home if you start early. Multiply that suggestion by 100 if you have or are ever going to have children in your home.
I can think of at least a half dozen small working line GSD breeders that are breeding well balanced dogs for both home and field in order to better the breed and are not charging a king's ransom for them. Personally I have one of Ed's pups out of the first AI breeding of Natan. She has surpassed all my expectations of what I thought I wanted in a dog BOTH in my home and on the training field. I cannot say enough good things about our Training Director Dave Blank as well. His commitment to our club, knowledge of training, and skill as a helper amaze me weekly. Combining his one one one supervision with my pups genetics has set me up for success and gotten me very hooked on the sport.
Good luck in your decision making process and I look forward to seeing you out in Joliet at some point soon.
John
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Re: Puppy or Trained Dog
[Re: John J. Miller ]
#174246 - 01/10/2008 10:34 AM |
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Thank you for your time and opinions, I really appreciate them. I was thinking that I wanted a puppy, but wanted a few, more unbiased opinions on the topic. I would love to have a dog from Leerburg, and I have been holding out for them to breed GSDs again. I know that there are a lot of other great breeders out there too, but I have done a lot of research on them.
I fully intend on visiting Joliet's club in the near future. Beth has me loving you guys already! I checked out the website and enjoy the updates! I really miss doing decoy work!
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Re: Puppy or Trained Dog
[Re: John J. Miller ]
#174247 - 01/10/2008 10:36 AM |
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Re: Puppy or Trained Dog
[Re: andrew rowley ]
#174250 - 01/10/2008 11:01 AM |
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I'll give you the other side of the coin.
I started with an adult dog. She was 4 when I got her with some training, but no titles.
I knew what I was getting. I knew her hips and elbows were good. I knew she was good around cats (we have cats). I knew she traveled well, we travel a lot. I knew she was crate trained, potty trained, etc. I knew she was in a house and kennel and was fine in both.
I also knew what her temperment was. I didn't have to wait for anything to mature. I knew what type of drive she had, didn't have to wait and see how it turned out. Granted I was brand new and didn't exactly "know" but I could see it, and I knew I liked it.
She isn't a nat'l comptetitor, but we did get our BH and SchH-I and we aren't done yet. but she is a very nice dog and does go absolutely everywhere with me. Parks, parades, Menard's, Hotels, beaches, etc, and can light it up on the field no problems.
I defineatly liked getting a dog that I knew what she was when I got her, I could see it, didn't have to wait for anything to grow mature and develop. She had some training, and I had none. I found it to be very easy to do drive building with a dog that already knew the game, and bitework as well. There was still plenty of training to do, those titles didn't come easy, but the basics where there already.
Now I have my first puppy, we'll see in a year or two how my puppy rearing skill are. There are benefits both ways. The biggest difference I can see right now, is the bond with the puppy was much faster. I bonded with the older dog rather quickly as well, but we didn't have the real tight trusting bond for quite a while. Other than that< i can see all the mistakes I would have made with a puppy, if I wouldn't have started with an older dog first.
My mistakes with the older dog didn't matter as much, because if I did something wrong, it may have confused her a little bit, but I only had to do it right one more time and it was ok. Do something wrong with a dog that has no clue what its supposed to be doing and you might be working at it a lot longer.
Just my .02
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Re: Puppy or Trained Dog
[Re: Eric Read ]
#174254 - 01/10/2008 11:18 AM |
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Thank you for your input Eric, I appreciate you giving me the other side of the subject. There definately is a lot to think about when diving into this endevour!
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Re: Puppy or Trained Dog
[Re: Heather Dzick ]
#174255 - 01/10/2008 11:25 AM |
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I was lucky. I researched for a long time. Did nothing but read for almost a year. Was fortunate enough to live within an hour from Ed and Cindy at Leerburg, and they have never pointed me in the wrong direction.
I see a lot of people that weren't so lucky getting into this, but I was. They really sent me off in the right direction.
Be patient, don't be in a hurry, and do what feels right. You'll win in the end.
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Re: Puppy or Trained Dog
[Re: Eric Read ]
#174259 - 01/10/2008 11:44 AM |
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Yes, I feel very lucky too. Getting involved with a club from the very beginning that is open to new handlers without any political BS going on and working with an experienced trainer/helper all along has helped me avoid many mistakes. Now I just have to try and not screw her up! I also found a 3.5 year old adult male three months ago that I have started training with so I have both of your options in my home every day! Bonding was no issue. He is a lot of fun on the field, and I enjoy him, but he has a long way to go in the house and everyday life. I don't know if he ever will be able to handle the freedoms that my female does which is why I will choose puppies for dual purpose dogs (family companion and SchH) moving forward.
John
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