the handler simply cannot be the one to "train for the helper" and just needs a helper from the get go?

By this I mean, the dog LOVES to bite so much that if the handler acts as a "decoy" or tries to train to a tug or sleeve, that the dog sees their handler as a decoy as well?
But the same dog, once out of drive, follows the rules and knows the leadership ladder?

I am not talking about redirected aggression, I am talking about full out, likes to bite and therefore the handler cannot "play those games" with their own dog even when it is a young pup or dog.

Hopefully this is not way out in left field and yields some good discussion. Don't know why I thought of it.....ahem....ahember....ahem.....

Thanks in advance.

Edit: was not sure where to put this really but it did not really fit general dog conversation, I totally understand if it gets moved.......

The dogs I have seen where a handler cannot do tug work or bitework with their own dog are dogs who are just intensely defensive.

If a dog is raised from puppyhood by someone that knows what they are doing, I cannot see any reason why this would be an issue. Ofcourse, with some dogs like this, "knowing what they are doing" goes up to a whole 'nother level. You need to really understand the dog or you will get into trouble.

I know of one Mali that was purchased at 2 years old. The owner did the dogs obedience while wearing a bite suit, because every prong correction resulted in the dog biting the owner in the hip. This wasn't really handler aggression, it was just the dogs strong desire to bite. The correction from the prong amped him up so he'd bite whatever was closest. The only safe way for the handler to be around the dog and teach him "biting the handler is not the right thing to do", was to have the handler in a bite suit so the dog could be corrected for the biting.

Perhaps not neccesarily the way I would have chosen to go about it, but it worked.

Just keep your tug on a line that way you can snatch it from .....ahem....ahember....ahem.... and you can put it away while keeping yourself out of the line of fire of those 9mm teeth. I wouldn't use anything that made me part of the toy such as a sleeve. Or else the dog is going to drive you nuts and sliver your fingers etc when you least expect it! How is her ball (prey) drive? Can you redirect it onto something else?

Keep yourself playing but make it so she doesn't look at you as the toy. You are a part of the game not the toy. You start the game and finish it by your rules. When in doubt or you are tired of it just back to basic ground work. Hello Crate!

 Quote: Geoff Empey

.....ahem....ahember....ahem....

I was kind of kidding when I said this....but I think having the little demon spawn is part of what made me think of it.....

Ball drive, not so good, but getting better and we do a lot of rag work, although she does like the sleeve.

With her it is not seeing me as the toy, but rather, she can throw a temper tantrum if she does not get her way (which she doesn't) but it is not that often.

So back to the discussion......

When someone has a dog that likes to do this work and is raising or has raised it from a pup, or purchased an young dog that can do the job but has not had a lot of foundation work......what would any of you that have experience do when the dog bites you or tries to bite you more often than not just out of pure drive?

I understand compulsion and motivation, but I am looking for more in depth explanations.......just for discussion.

I would never ever put a sleeve on my arm and let Lear have at me. He's pretty much what you've described. IMO putting a sleeve on me is inviting big trouble. I have always and still do play with a tug with him, but did stop for about 4 months or so when he turned about 5 months old, as it seemed to exacerbate his constant biting of me. I'm sure the seasoned protection trainers on this board would not have done this and I thought about not stopping tug work with him too, but it was either that or continue to empower him toward me. He did eventually stop using me as his decoy. But I say again that with Lear (and my shortcomings), I would never use myself intentionally as a decoy.

 Quote: Mike J Schoonbrood

The dogs I have seen where a handler cannot do tug work or bitework with their own dog are dogs who are just intensely defensive.

this sparks a question, i thought that the handler wasnt supposed to ever do any kind of bitework with the dog, so are they able to do some, just not when it starts to involve defense and fight; only prey?

Mike said;
"If a dog is raised from puppyhood by someone that knows what they are doing, I cannot see any reason why this would be an issue. Ofcourse, with some dogs like this, "knowing what they are doing" goes up to a whole 'nother level. You need to really understand the dog or you will get into trouble."

I'd like to stress this point from Mike. With some dogs, something as little as eye contact or body posture can create defence in a dog. This is where "knowing what they are doing" is so very important.
Stressing your own dog with defence will create distrust towards you from your dog.

 Quote: mary roach

 Quote: mike j schoonbrood

The dogs I have seen where a handler cannot do tug work or bitework with their own dog are dogs who are just intensely defensive.

this sparks a question, i thought that the handler wasnt supposed to ever do any kind of bitework with the dog, so are they able to do some, just not when it starts to involve defense and fight; only prey?

Speaking as a decoy, I will work my own dogs with a sleeve or suit, and know many many people who do this. Some of it depends on the dog, some of it depends on knowing what to do with the dog.

While I am not a fan of people doing this themselves without the proper understanding, it annoys me when people believe that this is detrimental to the dog. Dogs really aren't that complicated. People over-analyze things too much. Alot of people, especially in the PPD world, are really stuck on this "the decoy is the enemy" idea. That's just not true.

As the owner of a very defensive dog....as Bob said, it would be very stressful for her should I do decoy type work with her and I have no doubt that it would be detrimental to the bond that we share. Anything that is considered a game is fine, she loves it.

I also realize that if some things about her temperament were slightly different it might not be a problem as she also has high prey drive. So as Mike said, depends on the dog.