I have read in one of Ed's article's that a dog will not protect its owner unless it has been trained to do so. However I have read the post (from december 2007) also about the case last year of the GSD named Congo in which the owner claimed that his dog protected his wife by attacking the landscaper. From what I have read Congo was just a family dog, not a PPD. So I wonder, could the attack be attributed to something other than protection (a type of aggression) or could a dog that has not been trained in PP, display protective behaviour under special circumstances (threats)?


P.S. I tried to search on the internet for the outcome (end), but I did not find it, I live outside the US, what happened to Congo?

Maria, according to my trainer, some dogs do have a predisposition for being more protective than others. He has a labrador that has been trained for bite training but in a real situation would NEVER actually attack someone. The question you ask is a difficult one to answer. One of the reasons there is so much controvery in the dog world concerning, drives, pedigrees, nerves, etc.

According to most informed trainers, Ed included a dog will do what most animals will do when faced with serious life threatening opposition and that is to flee first and fight only as a "no way out" situation. Survival is the primary hardwire of most creatures so to expect them to automatically want to fight to protect their owners is risky, at best.

Now, a gsd is one of those breeds that has the disposition to be protective. If you look at the list of protection breeds here on the site you will get info regarding several others that fit into this gategory, still there is always a question of the fight in the dog. Protection training comes down to playing a game with a dog and making it believe it will win every time, waiting until it is mature enough to handle stress and then putting all the foundation training into effect to see if there are any kinks to be worked out of the dog.

My trainer has worked with dogs that have supposedly already been protection trained but when he sneaks into the back yard or does something to help the owner test the dog, the dog will turn and run. I've even seen police dogs, on camera, that will turn and run or will try to play with the perpetrator.

As far as Congo, I vaguely remember...didn't the dog attack the landscaper for coming into the yard when the owners didn't expect him or something? I don't know if attacking the landscaper would be the same as protecting the wife. I may have my stories confused but a dog that bites w/o serious provocation or command, wouldn't be considered stable. If the dog did attack under provocation then who's to say what brought it on? I have always heard that dogs have the ability to see things in other people that we sometimes cant. Maybe he saw a threat in the man that no one else saw. Again, forgive me, I don't really remember the story all that well. Ultimately, dogs are like people when they are scared, some will freeze, some will attack and some will run. It really is a very broad question.

I don't know if any of this answered your question but I do know that for me, the reason I decided to protection train was because I didn't want to take the chance that when and if the time ever came, that my dog would not rise to the occasion. Even still, WITH training, I will never really know until, God forbid, something real happens.

Yes, I suppose it is sort of a difficult question to answer.
But thanks for the answer, Robbin, interesting...so even protection trained police dogs can run...I did not expect that. That means that even with a PDD you would need a backup plan.

We had a miniture poodle that would protect our home and us, literally attack if we didn't greet and let whoever was at the door in. If somebody just strolled into the house unannounced he'd attack them. My parents have a miniture Schnauzer that doesn't let anybody touch my dad, she doesn't run, she stands her ground and bites if she feels somebody is messing with him. My son has jokingly poked and jabbed at my dad, his grandpa, to see what the dog would do. She got quite aggressive.

Our shepherd doesn't act like he would hurt a fly, loves everybody. I think it has to do with the dog's disposition, not training. The breeder we purchased our dog from said her dogs were lovers. Her stud dog was sent to her when he failed at guard and protection work.

I think it's their disposition.

I sometimes wonder why GSD breeders breed dogs to be sociable. Are gsd's not supposed to be aloof, and slow to make friends? Why are we breeding friendly sociable German shepherds? I see it in ads all the time, in workingline/showline GSD's. I'm not saying we should breed fear biters, please understand that, but they should be aloof.
My last shepherd,(German showline) could walk in a crowd, and ignore everyone, even those right beside him (that was without my training). He was not the licky hand type that Kujo(my current workingline) is. Buying a shepherd pup is so hard, because even though it is the same breed, the temperments very soooo much.

Cari - the schnauzer, the behavior you describe is not the same type of protective nature that Rosalinda is thinking of. The schnauzer is resource guarding, which is a dominant trait. The poodle also sounds like it just ruled the roost, it is common in small dogs and indeed in mini poodles, same with chihuahuas and bichons and all those little dogs and is generally due to improper handling or lack of training(I do not mean abuse)

Not to be rude or anything but there are breed traits that are considered natural protective behaviors, though a dog is not a true protection dog unless trained. Some dogs are aggressive due to dominance, most small dogs become aggressive because they learn that aggression is a way to control people, it is from insecurity.

All dogs of a breed are not created equal. There are show lines/pet lines and working lines of most breeds. Most show and pet line dogs have had all the work bred out of them. There are many ways to make a dog aggressive but being aggressive does not mean the dog is protective of anything but itself or its territory.

 Quote: cari hanson

My parents have a miniture Schnauzer that doesn't let anybody touch my dad, she doesn't run, she stands her ground and bites if she feels somebody is messing with him. My son has jokingly poked and jabbed at my dad, his grandpa, to see what the dog would do. She got quite aggressive.

I would wonder if the dog perceived herself as the pack leader, and was showing resource guarding..... someone was messing with "her" human.... the human she owns.....

In some posts on this and other threads, it sems that there might be a terminology gray area. A fear-aggressive dog isn't what I'd call "naturally protective." A territorial dog isn't what I think I'd call "naturally protective," either.

In general, I believe that I read and hear many descriptions of dog behavior that has nothing at all to do with "natural protectiveness" but is described as such by the owners.

But..... that's JMO.

Terminology is often a big stumbling-block in discussions about dog behavior.

 Quote: Janet Koehler

I sometimes wonder why GSD breeders breed dogs to be sociable. Are gsd's not supposed to be aloof, and slow to make friends? Why are we breeding friendly sociable German shepherds? I see it in ads all the time, in workingline/showline GSD's. I'm not saying we should breed fear biters, please understand that, but they should be aloof.
My last shepherd,(German showline) could walk in a crowd, and ignore everyone, even those right beside him (that was without my training).

AMEN! Read the breed standard! I wish I had a dollar for every time I told someone that if I wanted a Golden or a Lab, I'd have bought one! They are not supposed to make indiscriminate friendships. They are supposed to be watchful, aloof, yet STABLE! It's sad that we've come so far off the standard for temperament. I know exactly what you mean; you don't want an overly-aggressive dog-you want a stable, clear-headed dog who will not lick a burglar to death.

 Quote: jennifer marshal

Cari - the schnauzer, the behavior you describe is not the same type of protective nature that Rosalinda is thinking of. The schnauzer is resource guarding, which is a dominant trait. The poodle also sounds like it just ruled the roost, it is common in small dogs and indeed in mini poodles, same with chihuahuas and bichons and all those little dogs and is generally due to improper handling or lack of training(I do not mean abuse)

Big fat DITTO. You were posting while I was typing.

Those little dogs who "own" the household .... this is strictly a handler problem. A common one.

The dog perceives no pack leader, so, like it or not, the dog has to try and fill the role.

And I promise you that most of those dogs don't want that role, and are anxious about not having the security of a real pack leader. Most dogs are *not* born to that role --- that's not the way it works. But a lot of dogs inherit it by default.

JMO.

 Quote: connie sutherland

In some posts on this and other threads, it sems that there might be a terminology gray area. A fear-aggressive dog isn't what I'd call "naturally protective." A territorial dog isn't what I think I'd call "naturally protective," either.

In general, I believe that I read and hear many descriptions of dog behavior that has nothing at all to do with "natural protectiveness" but is described as such by the owners.

But..... that's JMO.

Terminology is often a big stumbling-block in discussions about dog behavior.

Again, AMEN. I laugh at the looks I get when someone says "Oh,he's so protective" about one of mine, and then I say "Nah-he's just territorial." They look at me like I'm nuts! But let's call a spade a spade.