I would like to get as many takes on this issue as possible, so any trainers out there feel free to give an opinion. How many methods are there for starting a young adult in defense? There are obviously multiple methods for obedience work, some work better than others for certain dogs. I would like to get a cross-section of techniques for bringing a dog into defensive drive. I've got a male that's very high in prey, with a solid temperament. He's solid on the sleeve, full mouth bite, but barely counters, would rather tug down and backward than shake out a hold. I've got the Leerburg tape, and I have read about Kohler's techniques. Using Frawley's tape I've trained two dogs with excellent sucess, but this male is a new experience, any help/advice is welcomed.

JT,

I like to use civil work from a distance, as described in Leerburgs "The first steps of defense".

I have seen this, what you describe in two types of dogs. One is the the weaker nerved dog that is pulling to avoid the helper. This is common amongst weak nerved high prey dogs. The other is the dogs that like to do the tug-of-war thing.
Some trainers find this good, others do not. A question for you would be how old is this dog? That will depend on how to aproach defence. The civil from a distance would be a great, safe place to start. Let me know.

Depending on the dog as an individual and its associated thresholds, level of training, nerves and drives. Civil from a distance as mentioned is safe and will provide an opertunity to gauge the dog but IMO after a few training sessions you quickly know where you stand, what drives are operational, associated thresholds and the associated nerves. Also when is it necessary to switch. It would be ideal to form the correct assosiation with a dog pulling to get out of the scenario that this is not the way out but to deal with the stress in a positive manner thereby bringing relief. Things are to be accomplished in prey, once there the whole scenario is to be evaluated, what do we want, where do we wanna go and training applied accordingly. How do you switch, depends on the dog and its associated genetics as well as how far it has progressed in certain primary drives and what associations have been formed.

Wow. That is a tough one to answer on this type of forum. More specific questions work best but I will take a small piece of your post and tell you how I introduce dogs to defense training. This is straight from Ed’s tape on First steps of Defense. A helper hides down wind in a wooded area just ahead of a path that you and your dog will be traveling. Night time works best because it adds to your dog’s suspicion level. As you approach him have the helper make noise by moving some branches. At this cue alert your dog as the helper makes himself visible. Any aggressive reactions from the dog scares the helper visibly and makes him run away. Lots of praise is then given to the dog. One word of warning. Do not overdue this training or your dog will bark at every noise he hears in the dark. Real pain in the but.

JT, how does your dog act while guarding the prey? This is where I first begin work in defensive drive with a dog. (We are talking Schutzhund here- right?) During the guarding exercise you can begin to see what your dogs defensive threshold is as well as get a begining idea of the dogs nerve. I like to see the dog give A LITTLE attitude while guarding before I start civil work. (I like to start civil work as soon as I am getting the beginings of a good guarding response from the dog.)

Uuh, oh yea, you do need an experienced helper to do this right. You don't want to give too much pressure to start out with, avoidance is bad. Just enough to see if the dog focuses on the helper as a threat, or thief in this case. "HEY JERK, DON'T TAKE MY PREY!" Then instant reward by helper running scared. There is a whole lot more to this, by the way.

Vince made a good point about not overdoing civil work. You have to make sure you are still teaching your dog good behavior while around friendly people as well as teaching him to bark at the suspicious ones. Don't do this in the same session though. Stick to one or the other.

Every time I start on one of these type of questions I think of about a thousand more things that I need to say to make my points clear. oh well. . .

Good post Vancamp.

Thanks everybody-
To VanCamp- We've done a little guarding work, that seems to be where we get the best response. To give a little background, the dog is a year and a half old, and when I got him he had not been touched. His brother has been worked some (he is owned by a friend) and shows and excellent balance of prey and defense.
As for guarding, he will only release the sleeve on the ground for a brief moment, and as soon as the helper retreats he's back to the sleeve, no barking. My feeling is that he's just developing slower than his brother, but I'm no expert.

I'm no expert either, but I like to think I am. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Ha, ha, ha. . .

Without seeing Fido in action I don't think I have much more to add. What type of responses are you getting when the dog releases the sleeve in guarding? He is not barking, right. If the dog does have good nerves, and is showing some kind of positive reaction in prey guarding, I would do two things. One, start civil work. Two, begin to add more pressure in agitation during the guarding exercise. The dog may be a late bloomer or may just have a higher threshold for defense. (if everything else is going OK)

When you say pressure in guarding work, what specifically are we talking about? Also, if the dog has a higher threshold, would it be better to do civil training at night and in a brand-new area to the dog? The last two dogs I trained just needed threatening body language and a little yelling from the helper, and I did it right outside my house in the street. Final question, if the problem is high threshold and I mistake it for late bloomer, will continued prey work at this stage make it harder to bring him into defense later, i.e. become "locked in prey"?
By the way, I've been to a lot of other message boards and I really appreciate the way you guys answer questions without putting people down. Some people out there say things on emails that they would never say to a person face-to-face. This board seems to display a higher intelligence level.