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I still don't agree. If we take *off* breeds to do what they're not supposed to do then where are we going to end up? Boston terriers doing water rescue? Newfoundlands herding in the Arizona heat? C'mon.

I agree Enrique, it has to make sense. The dog (whatever the breed) has to meet the demands of the work. Look at the KNPV...the majority of the dogs today are mixed Malinois. There was a time when the majority were Bouvier, the sport hasn't changed, but the Bouvier people did.

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My point is, just because the person likes a particular sport doesn't mean the dog should do it. Schutzhund is not a free for all. It's becoming that way but it doesn't mean it should be.

If you read my previous post, I emphasized that the dog has to 'like' doing the work. I don't recommend people go out and find a breed of dog that is so far outside the line of a traditional SchH dog, because the work is hard enough when you have a solid GSD, Malinois, etc. This hobby is very time consuming & can be quite expensive, so why start out behind the 8 ball. That is my opinion, but I'm not going to discourage someone with a good American Bulldog, Chessie, ACD, etc from doing the sport if they are aware of what they are getting into & they don't expect the rules to change to accomodate them.

There were 13 breeds originally 'approved' for SchH/IPO. It's a bit of a shame that there are only 3-4 left that are shown in any significant number. The changes in the sport have a lot less to do with the participation of 'other' breeds than it does with the agenda of some to lower the performance standards, namingly the showline GSD crowd. The American-line GSD is a product of ignorant breeding practices and has little to do with SchH at all, because those people don't & won't do SchH anyhow.

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I said it before, it's about honoring the sport and the breed. The amount of pressure being put on the dogs today is a lot less than it used to be. Yes, pressure on the dogs has to do with the helper but also it's a sign of the times. We see it all the time with showline shepherds, sub-standard dogs earning SchH 3 titles, and so on.

The unfortunate reality is that if someone wants to breed sub-standard dogs, they are going to, and it can even be done within the realm of SchH and Ringsport. You see it all the time. There are many Malinois 'breeders' in this country that are using an untitled, untested sons of well-known dogs in Europe, as stud dogs. Is this a terrible thing for 1 generation, maybe or maybe not, but keep doing it and you're going to end up in the crapper in a few generations. This is compounded by the fact that there aren't many people here have the experience or depth of knowledge to properly evaluate a dogs character beyond the confines of a given sport's framework.

I would love to see sports like Belgian Ring & KNPV take hold here in the US. I'd also love to see the day when a Dobermann, Giant Schnauzer or Rottweiler with great nerve, courage, hunt & prey drive is more common than not. And finally, I love to see the day when breeders that a producing working prospect puppies can justify that statement beyond the the titles that show up in the litter's pedigree.

Good post. I too would love to see many of the breeds who have been so watered down, to regain their original traits. John, out of curiosity, which were the 13 breeds originally approved for SchH/IPO?

 Quote: John Haudenshield

I'd also love to see the day when a Dobermann, Giant Schnauzer or Rottweiler with great nerve, courage, hunt & prey drive is more common than not. And finally, I love to see the day when breeders that a producing working prospect puppies can justify that statement beyond the the titles that show up in the litter's pedigree.

Amen!!!

yea, what were the original 13? this could be revealing, oh and when was the list made. circa....?

I could be mistaken, but I think these are the 'original 13':

German Shepherd Dog
Rottweiler
Giant Schnauzer
Dobermann Pincher
Boxer
Great Dane
Hovawart
Bouvier des Flanders
Malinois
Lakenois
Groenendael
Tervuren
Beauceron

I don't know the date this would have been established, but I imagine sometime between 1910-1920.

I like Beacerons, but Great Danes being on the list suprises me! has anyone known any GD's that could do that kind of work? from what Ive seen the breed seems to be very soft sort of dogs anymore, there must be some that are still what they are supposed to be though.

Yeah, that surprised me too! That and not seeing the Dutch Shepherd on there. Over the years I have seen some very impressive Pitbulls & American Bulldogs. So it seems the list has grown a bit since then.

I don't have a problem with the "original 13", I was going to mention that on the other thread but thought it was pointless.
What I was getting at is the fact that there's nothing wrong doing the job a dog is supposed to do, i.e. portuguese water dog works in water, pointers hunt, etc. And second, yes there have been other breeds to title but like I said in my original post, they are the exception not the rule.

Will titled an airdale an that's awesome! But the truth is that he's an absolute expert, and the dog was probably darn good too.
The lab that was mentioned, if I'm not mistaken, is the first and only to title SchH 3.

So my point was, the OP was mentioning a pup, which that in itself is a crap shoot, and second an *off* breed (RR), which would make it nearly impossible to do the job.

 Quote: Alex Corral

Yeah, that surprised me too! That and not seeing the Dutch Shepherd on there. Over the years I have seen some very impressive Pitbulls & American Bulldogs. So it seems the list has grown a bit since then.

Remember this list was made in Germany probably 80-90 years ago. The Pitbull & American Bulldog would have been virtually unknown to them at the time. Also, the Dutch Shepherd probably hadn't been separated from the GSD and/or Belgian Group, per the FCI, yet. If I remember correctly, I don't think the SV started faulting the brindle coat color until the early 1920's.

The guy I train with, Armin Winkler, had a Great Dane as his first SchH dog in the mid to late 1970's. Also, a Great Dane was shown in the 1988 East German Bundesseiger (along with a Collie), Ed has an article about it here.

Bob Van Camp, who many may remember was a moderator on this board, posted the a start of a history of the German Shepherd.

http://gsd-gebrauchshund.blogspot.com/

One of the things recounted in the article was that Great Dane's were originally selected as police dogs. They lost out to German Shepherds because the Shepherd didn't eat nearly as much, had an all-weather coat (for northern Europe), and had an uncanny desire to please the handler.