I took Cooper to an orthopedic specialist today to see what was up with his cronic limp. It is damage to the growth plate and we need to rest and restrict for a month.

Anyway: Here is the concern.

The vet is against/leary of raw. I know, no suprise there. He did have what appear to be valid points. At least I am unsure how to answer. Thus I am here.

The vet explained meat has more phosphorus than calcium and when the ratio is out of balance the absorption of calcium is effected. Especially in a puppy.

He futher warned against all suppliments such as egg, cottage cheese and yogurt.

Yikes!!

I know vets have limited nutritional knowledge but this seems basic??

Kind of confused

In a diet of meat with no bones the vet would be correct about the calcium/phosphorous ratio being skewed.

The muscle meat *must* be fed with the bones it "comes with," as the LB sample diets and every discussion here makes as clear as possible (hence the constant use of the RMB term, or "raw meaty BONES").

An all muscle meat diet (no bones) is a nutritional disaster.

Yogurt, egg, etc., are not sufficient calcium to make up for a lack of bone.

That is, they each "come with" their own calcium (shell, dairy calcium), but they don't provide the calcium to balance an all-muscle-meat diet.

To the O.P.

Are you feeding a balanced diet per the Leerburg sample menus for puppies or per one of the books LB sells?

Hi Michelle,

I'm coming back to the board after a long weekend, so (forgive me) I don't know how old Cooper is, or what breed, but did the vet suggest that the growth plate damage was DUE to a calcium/phosphorous imbalance? Or did he just launch into an anti raw monologue for the sake of it, since he knows you feed raw?

A lot of things can damage or tinker with growth plates, including (in many cases) strenuous, age inappropriate exercise and accidental injury. Diet certainly plays a major role in all aspects of a dog's health, but growth plates are something that are most often affected by a growing dog's activity. Did Cooper have an "athletic" type injury? (perhaps you already posted about it, sorry if I missed it...)

As far as calcium and phosphorous - YES, muscle meat has more phosphorous than calcium, but BONE has more calcium than phosphorous, so as long as you're feeding raw meaty bones in addition to muscle meat, you should be OK. I think one of the best ways to know if your ratios are right is to check out your puppy's poop - firm, fully formed stools will indicate a good balance. Too soft and squishy = too much muscle meat; really dry and crumbly = too much bone.

Don't know why eggs and yogurt wouldn't be on this vet's "ok" list if we're talking about calcium, as they have more calcium than many other "add ins" (in fact I wouldn't really consider them suppliments, just other ingredients that can be used in minor portions.)

There are many here who begin raw with their pups as soon as they're weaned, so
it is indeed possible to do "correctly" (nature makes it work all the time ). I'm sure more will chime in - Connie will know more about the calcium/phosphorous ratio for sure!

Cheers, and good luck with a pup on house arrest - I know how brutal that is!!
-Natalya

*I took too long to write - Connie DID sneak in there with the good stuff!!

Edited by Natalya Zahn (02/04/2008 01:17 PM)
Edit reason: couldn't post faster than Connie...

Wow thanks for the fast responces.

First the vet does not think it is diet related. He just mentioned it when I told him I did raw.

Cooper is 16 weeks GSD. He just woke up 17 days ago with a limp. We had been very careful but my five year old boxer is rough and Cooper is large boned even for a shep. I do not recall any inapropriate play and Cooper was always leashed to me.

Anyway first vet said it was an elbow sprain but he had misdiagnosed my boxer as a sprain when it was an ACL tear so after xrays and rest and steriod shot I opted for an orthopedic specialist today.

On the good side hips are good, no pano, no OCD. They saw a slight difference in the way the left growth plate was fusing as apposed to the right. Apparently they do not fuse completely until 5 mnths so we are strictly restricting activity for a month and HOPEFULLY it will heal itself.

To the diet. Let me be honest with what I am doing.

TOTALLY believe in raw. Hubby TOTALLY freaKED BY THE BONES AND CHOKING. I went with premade raw. I switch between Oma's Pride plus Natural Variety, for variety. I add E, flaxseed, 50/50 alpha & Kelp. Every couple of days they get cottage cheese and or yogout.

This is where I might be messing it up. I add meat SOMETIMES. Last week it was beef ribs (with bone). They have also, behind hubby's back had turkey necks, chicken quarters. These at least have bones. There are days I just add ground turkey or chicken breast or beef if on sale.

I haven't done any adding since the puppy except the ribs so I do not think I AM the problem YET! With Quincy to be sure he gets everythin I have been doing one raw meal plus one puppy kibble.

Sorry this is so long but I feel I am all over the map and need to get things right. Figure it out or stop. I do not want to be my dogs problems.

Oh I have been giving the pup an egg twice a week which the vet said to stop.

 Quote: Michelle Berdusco

This is where I might be messing it up. I add meat SOMETIMES. Last week it was beef ribs (with bone). They have also, behind hubby's back had turkey necks, chicken quarters. These at least have bones. There are days I just add ground turkey or chicken breast or beef if on sale.

I haven't done any adding since the puppy except the ribs so I do not think I AM the problem YET! With Quincy to be sure he gets everythin I have been doing one raw meal plus one puppy kibble.

Sorry this is so long but I feel I am all over the map and need to get things right. Figure it out or stop. I do not want to be my dogs problems.

Oh I have been giving the pup an egg twice a week which the vet said to stop.

Sounds good to me. A couple of small tweaks to your purchased raw diets (plus):

Yogurt is much better than cottage cheese, and in fact I prefer not to give unfermented milk products that are high in salt (like cottage cheese), or at least not regularly. I do give unflavored live-culture yogurt for the probiotics (which cottage cheese doesn't provide).

The commercial raw diets you mentioned are balanced, and using RMBs like chicken quarters is balanced, too. I wouldn't give a lot of muscle meat with no bones.

Raw eggs: It's raw whites without the yolks that can be a problem. The occasional whole raw egg is fine, IMO.

heres the deal that vets just won't see...
the dog needs calcium and phosphorous to grow bones correctly and together-no bones growing faster than others, etc....
raw meaty bones-are well, bones already formed.

They therefore already have calcium and phosphorous in the perfect and natural ratio-unless it is from a gimpy messed up animal-in which case i wouldn't let my dogs eat it.

you don't need to add supplements(calcium) because the bones are a complete source for that-make sure to mention that to hubby.

My opinion is-this is what nature intended them to eat-what wild dogs/wolves eat-not ck leg quarters per say-but meat, organs and bones.

If a dog/wolf became deficient on this diet-if all the protein,calcium,phosphorus,etc wasn't in the food the animal was eating, they would not have survived.

The way nature and evolution works-whether or not you believe in evolution-if it does not work-do something different or you will die.

If this diet were in ANY way harmful or not 100% "complete and balanced"-wolves would have evolved to eat something different.

But your vet will have you believe that out fido is so far removed from his wolf ancestors....but infact-they may look different-but inside(where it counts) they are still wolves-their body functions the same way-and they need to eat the same food. Maybe more or less of the food depending on size and activity level-but the same diet.

 Quote: Michelle Berdusco

Oh I have been giving the pup an egg twice a week which the vet said to stop.

I'm guessing that the vet said to stop the eggs not because of nutrition but because they're always going on about salmonella. Just delete his warnings about eggs from your mind, if that's what he's worried about. As Connie said, an occasional whole raw egg is fine for dogs.

I don't think, based on what you said, that you've been doing anything that could have caused Cooper's problem that I can see.

Good luck restricting the activity...I don't envy you!

 Quote: Amber Morgan

.

I don't think, based on what you said, that you've been doing anything that could have caused Cooper's problem that I can see.

Oh, I should have said that too. Ditto.

WOW that is a huge relief. I really worried that when I gave just muscle meat I threw everything out of whack.

Isn't it true that as long as everything is balanced in the LONG run. I ask because I am slightly confused. I understand that the bone balances out the calcium:phosphorus ratio.
My question is... Really because like some RMB have lots of bone and little meat (chix wings) and others have lots of meat (chix quartes.) Also the beef ribs didn't have much bone?

Also the vet wasn't worried about samonella he specifically said too much calcium.