I want to get some opinions about working an adult GSD with a tug. Not having the luxury of a helper, I'm trying to find another way to satisfy my dogs prey drive other than chasing a ball. I was told that letting him run and chase after a ball is bad on hips, especially if they already have some dysplasia. Richard I'm counting on you're opinion too.

I know the handler is never supposed to work his or her own dog in defense so heres my question.

Is it considered working you're own dog in defense if you "THE HANDLER" play a ruff game of tug, using the word PACKEN when he bites the tug? I want to start training him to bite when I use the word packen. I assume he is only biting in prey even though I am the one who is fighting with him and the tug.

Another scenerio: Dog is sitting or in a down position. "THE HANDLER" stands away from his dog and makes a body movement with the tug or gives the command "PACKEN." You're dog then responds by attacking and biting the tug. Would that be considered working you're own dog in defense? I don't see anything wrong with this do you?

Working a dog in defense to me would be to threaten or hit the dog in such a way that it would throw him into defense. He would be defending himself from a threat.

I would appreciate any other ideas on how a handler can train the attack command if it's just him and the dog. I just don't have access to a helper right now and need to work some of his energy and prey drive off.

Thanks....

You can work this dog on the tug, and to answer you questions it is not a bad thing, nor are you teaching the dog the attack word so to speak. He is working omly in prey, and the tug actions by yourself, is just teaching the dog to fight for his prey. You are kicking this dogs prey drive up a bit, and teahing him to fight the prey, not the yourself.
A famous trainer in Germany uses something like what you do, with his pups, to his Schutzhund 3 Bundensieger competitor dogs. He will tie a few dogs out, take a leather big tug on a rope and really just fustrate his dogs. He then gives them a bite, pulls on the leash, outs the dog, and onto the next animal. He does this he told me for two reasons. One to condition the dogs and two to "wake-up the fight for the the prey" Good luck and I hope this helps.

You might want to choose another command word, since words implying any sort of attack, such as PACKEN or FASS, may no longer be used in Sch trials, thanks to the PC crowd.

My theory on teaching my dog to bite the tug when given the word "packen" is that it would then be transferable to biting a man when given the command "packen." I want to teach him to bite anything or anyone when given the word "packen." This means I want him to learn to bite even if the tug or person is not showing any movement if commanded to do so. Basically biting a neutral person, etc. I would like some ideas on how to teach this by using the tug if possible. Is this something that can only be done with a helper? I understand he needs to get some actual experience with man work but until I find someone willing to take a bite at the door or somewhere else I'm stuck with having him bite the tug. I understand that he is only biting in prey but I was a little concerned that I might be doing something wrong when fighting with him for the tug. In my scenerio the theory is that my dog will bite the tug or anything/anyone ONLY when given the command packen. Or he will bite and fight for the tug when I move the tug.

Michael says: You can work this dog on the tug, and to answer you questions it is not a bad thing, nor are you teaching the dog the attack word so to speak.

My question is this. What is the difference in teaching the dog to bite a tug when given the command "packen" and actually attacking something or someone? Is he not attacking per say only because he is biting in prey?

Michael says: He then gives them a bite, pulls on the leash, outs the dog, and onto the next animal.

I'm a little confused on how he is pulling the leash part when he is holding the tug?

I also for got to add but I think I said it in my first post that I am not tying my dog out. He is loose and either in the sit or down position when given the command "packen." Again I expect him to leave the sit oe down position and run across the room etc. to bite the tug when given the command "packen." I want him to go for the bite when commanded without frustrating him with the tug first.

Dave, I don't work my dog in Schutzhund and never will. As far as the Politically Correct people in the sporting world all I can say is that they can KISS IT! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Sorry if I've repeated myself anywhere in my post.

Glenn,

The words don't matter. In training the word is associated with the action. If you want you can teach a dog to sit when you say stand and stand for sit. There was a comedy routine a few yers ago based on that. For this reason any command will work. When working with the tug you can play as rough a game as you want, with one exception. The dog should not be so excited that it slips the tug and bites you.

The other thing about working with a tug yourself it is possible to get the dog to trained to only play with you for this type of game. You can start the work for passive bites by doing them with the tug. Once the dog understands that the word means to make the bite, not the motion, make the motion less and less and after the comand is given. Reduce it to no motion, but a good fight after the bite is made. The other thing to teach is a fighting out, the fight doesn't stop but the dog releases on the out command. Both of these things are fairly advanced work.

When it comes time to transfer this to a man it will all basicly be started over. If it has been taught with the tug the training will go faster because you are only making the association to a new context. A bite is a bite to a dog. Until late in training they don't see a difference, and it is the fighting with the man and development of fight drive and the fight with the man. Prey is used to develop other levels of work and teach technique.

The work that Michael is talking about the leash is attached to a tug.

Thank you Richard for making that clear; it was my mistake not to do so.
If I were you I would buy a few of Ed's bite training videos, and read a few books to accomplish what you want. A helper is required to get to the goal you want. There are no two ways about it. You will most likely need strange decoys to proof this dog.

Richard I have one quick question if you could elaborate a bit more? You said and I quote: The other thing to teach is a fighting out, the fight doesn't stop but the dog releases on the out command.

What exactly do you mean the fight doesn't stop? Are you saying that after he outs you go right back into the fight? Do you have any other suggestions on bite training that I could be doing until I get a helper?

Can you lock you're dog in Prey doing this too much?

Michael I appreciate you're input too. I do have some of Ed's video's on this but I don't think he makes it clear about my particular situation. My dog has basic obedience and has been through some bite training about 2 1/2 years ago. Because of my health and not having any help I have not been able to keep this dogs training up to what it could be. I have a dog that will bite you without hesitation but I want the type of control you have when he will respond to a bite command. Surprisingly he outs very well after biting and sits there waiting for the next bite. I'm not sure how much a calm bite is needed in my scenerio because I'm not into Schutzhund. He does growl loudly shaking his head from side to side if the fight gets rougher and counter's when holding onto the tug. I don't know if this is bad or not. I know he doesn't let go until told to out. I am assuming that countering means that the dog regrips the tug without letting go or losing his grip completely. One other thing is that because I am not tying him out and working him I am able to work him super close. I can reach out and tap him head and grab him around the head with my free hand conditioning him to being touched while fighting for the tug. It seems to have no effect on him as far as releasing the tug and trying to bite me. Is this ok?

My answer is two fold. No it is not wrong in the respect that your are making a problem for the dog. On the othet hand unless he is a natural, and I think you said he would bite, then perhaps without the use of a helper he will learn the packin command through your condtioning, but I really do not think it is reliable. It must be proofed, and from what I know about dogs I have doubts of this dog engaging on a man that wants to cause you harm, as this is what I get from your posts. It is not an easy situation you are in without a helper, very fustrating I believe. I know the boat you are in as I lost my decoy yesterday, but I do have others, just not as excited about the work as he was. But back to you, dogs are creatures of habit, and when you are telling him Packin on a tug, and this goes on for an extended period of time, I believe the dog when told packin will look to you for the tug, and forget about attacking anyone else. I know this may sound a little negative, but this is what I think. At the end of hte day, it is anyones guess what will happen. There are steps most dogs must take in order to get to the stage you want him to. Most dogs cannot perform this task without them. It really depends on the dog, and the type of dog you want without training are far and few between. I hope this helps you.

Michael I agree with everything you have said. You in my opinion are 100% correct. I will eventually have to do man work in order to proof this dog when using the command "packen." Bernard Flinks and Kevin worked my dog at the age of about 18 months in New Mexico. My dog is also on a few of Ed's tapes at the age of 15 months. I believe he's on Ed's introductory tape he sends out, unless he's updated it. He's also on the tape "Training PPD's, if I remember right. I would have to go back through my tapes. He will be 5 years old this April. Like I said before he has not been worked in a very long time but believe me he is RANK, SOCIALLY AGRESSIVE, HARD AND VERY CIVIL! He's an OTIS son and MINK grandson. Oh I forgot to add he's DOG AGGRESSIVE too. He ain't about to let another dog come up to us or him let alone sniff him. I wasn't going to bring this up but now you might have an idea of what kind of dog I have. He is my closest companion and because of my health I have been able to spend an enormous amout of time bonding with him. I have had him since he was a little over 2 1/2 years of age. So I've had him for over two years now! Boy it's hard to believe.

In theory with the dog having former training, he should bite. The work you do with the tug, is not harmful, I do not feel. If yuo proff hime and walk him through a few steps it should work out. Mink does produce some tough dogs.