Leerburg kennels prove IMHO that you do not have to sacrifice breed type for working ability -- or vice versa.

Please do not flame, this is a serious inquiry... why is it that a truly quality working dog is only found in the conformation rings of EUROPE? Is it a far-fetched pipe dream to Expect a dog that is both Typey and Intelligent...capable of working and catching people's eye? I'm obviously not referring to a specials dog with a fancy handler...I'm talking about a well trained animal that fully and appropriately represents its breed being able to compete for top honors in both the breed ring and sport. I find that people in both fancies snort that such a dual dog is even possible... Post away--I'm looking forward to reading your replies...

"Jason" I hope you find this... as Erika and Fury have direct relation to this post!

Im sure I speak for a lot of people when I say thank the AKC. They all but ruin working breeds by focusing nearly on conformation alone. My dog of choice, the Doberman, has been nearly ruined by this association(with the help of puppy mills in the 70's and 80's). Imagine my dismay of finding several litters of beautiful dogs with little or absolutely no working heritage (Keep in mind I didnt have 2000$ for a pup plus plane ticket...lol). The question of working heritage alone even left a perplexed look on some breeders faces. I was lucky enough to hand pick one pup from a litter with distant working heritage using some puppy selection tips from one of Ed's tapes. The reason this is not the case in Europe is do to the fact that a lot of countries there require a working dog to actually prove working ability before it can be bred/showed.
So to answer your question I don't think its impossible, its just that it hasnt been a goal in this country for dogs to posess both traits. It can be done, it just takes time and a demand. Its a very split sided subject, as there are the AKC ignorant "Schutzhund Critics" types, and there are those who believe working dogs should be bred for working ability alone. Some breeders do strive for the "Total Dog", even here in America, you just have to find them.

I don't think a "true quality working dog" can even be found in "European" show rings. I think that breeding for character is far more difficult than breeding for conformation, so you are not going to see top working lines mixed with a bunch of medium (but pretty)Euro conformation dogs. Which also begs the question- what is the correct conformation for a working dog? I don't think the AKC German Shepherd standard is the answer, or for that matter, most of the AKC's show standards.
A true working line has two goals, health and working ability. In most breeds these qualities are what then defines their form/conformation. Breeding dogs for a specific physical ideal sucks unless there is real working ability there. Yea, yea German Show dogs have SchH titles, but that dosn't necessarily mean much. It just makes them that much better than American show lines. Still not the type of dogs that I look for. An ideal "typy" dog should look like most of the dogs that are doing serious work, i.e. police service, protection, etc.. It would be my pipe dream that the AKC would make a total about face and start selecting dogs that are beautiful in function, that then, dictates form. That would make for both a working and conformation dog. It has been way too long since the show dogs and working dogs branched away from each other. You just are not going to see crosses that turn out to be serious working dogs. But maybe I'm wrong, I wish I was wrong.

Hey, I haven't seen any Leerburg dogs winning AKC show titles? Maintaining type yes, but show conformation I'm not so sure.

I have seen very few show dogs that can compete at the high levels of schutzhund, or be an effective patrol dog. There have been a few, but I can count them on one hand. When I say show dogs I mean the German Show ring; forget about the AKC, I have not seen one AKC show dog thaty can work.
With the present standard and system of judging show dogs, it would be hard to have a National quality Schutzhund dog that could also go VA in the conformation ring. I do not think it could happen.
Most working line kennels in Europe are strictly intrested in producing working animals. It is not a goal to produce the VA type GSD. They are quite happy producing the type of animal that they have been producing.
With that said, I believe Ed said that the working GSD is gaining more intrest in certain cirlces in Germany, so time will tell what will happen with the show dog. Maybe the working GSD will become the standard and function will be put before form......?

VanCamp wrote:
"Hey, I haven't seen any Leerburg dogs winning AKC show titles? Maintaining type yes, but show conformation I'm not so sure."

And thank God for that! Until the AKC completely revamps it standards (which will never happen) I would not want to see a Leerburg dog, or any other dog of that caliber to win an AKC conformation. That would lead me to believe that the quality of these dogs had become diminished to make way for pure beauty (which in my book is also questionable in AKC conformation standards).

A couple of years ago, a friend of mine gave a seminar on Form and Function to AKC judges. She was quite actively involved in herding for many years with her Australian Cattle dogs and she also had an all breed herding facility. She has many freinds and contacts in the herding 'world' and thus invited many of them to this seminar and did a demonstration of each herding breed actually doing the herding. She first gave a lecture on the function of each breed and then what the 'form' should be. Many 'breeders' did not enjoy the topic and some were angry as she rightly pointed out how many of the herding breeds were no longer capable to doing what they were bred to do because of their 'form'. After the lecture, the judges watched each breed herding (she chose what she felt were 'good' representatives of the breed in both form and function). After each dog was done their demonstration , they were added to some 'show' dogs and they were then 'judged' by the judges for their conformation. As you can expect, the judges still chose the 'show' dogs vs. the working structure of many of them.

She was quite dissapointed in the judges attitudes but was plesently surprised when several judges came up to her the second day and congratulated her on pointing things out. (especially with respect to the gsd!) They did try to encourage her to continue talking about it as there are some of them that also feel that things need to improve and need to change.

So.....maybe there is 'some' hope?

The problem with American GSD show breeders of dogs with wobbly legs and weak nerves is that they are brainwashed into believing that their dogs posess very sound temperament and workability. I was completely heartbroken at a show a couple of years ago when I saw a kennel of 12 or 14 week old puppies (I can't remember the exact age) that a breeder was displaying for all to see of what great dogs she produced. One of the puppies had such wobbly legs that she kept falling over! It just makes me sick.

The problem with show conformation isn't the Breed Standard, but the application of the Stadards. In many breeds the standards are clear reguarding the size of the dogs, but in the ring the dogs that win are clearly over size. I have said this before (ad nausium), the problem is the fact that that the working people won't show. It has gotten to the point that the people that do show working dogs won't admit to it. They won't admit to it with the working people and won't admit to theshow people that there dogs are bite trained.

It has gotten to the point that most of the working dogs don't meet the standards for appearance any more and the show dogs can't work (and don't meet the standard). The way I solved this problem was by switching breeds. I started with a GSD and Belgian Sheep dog, then to the Giant Schnauzer and a Boxer, and now I am on to the Black Russian Terrier.

It can be done it is just very difficult. The breeding for temperament and for conformation are about equally difficult. Trying to do both increases the difficulty exponentially. Now you can't accept one or the other in a single dog you have to have both.

Richard,

Good point. Both sides(show and working)seem ashamed to acknowlege one another. You explained this nicely.