We have started correcting Max for biting with a leash pop - he is now almost 8 months and starting to get some real power in his bites. He generally listens to the corrections and stops biting, at which point we praise him.

But recently he has started growling and biting harder when I correct him, I currently have some pretty painful bruises on my hands and arms. Is this growling something to be worried about or is it part of him learning that he shouldn't be biting? Are my corrections maybe not hard enough and he's saying "I can take that and keep going"?

There's a number of other issues to consider, but from what you've said already you have a dominant dog that does not respect you or maybe not even trust you. I think I would definitely be up on my pack leadership skills, and if necessary bring in another handler to use a double line technique for training.

So how would I know for sure if my pup doesn't trust me? And if he doesn't how can I get him to trust me?

Please don't take this the wrong way but you as the owner simply must take on the responsibilty of providing leadership based on the principle of Pack behavoir.
It is firmly rooted in their DNA and has been passed down through many generations since dogs were bred from the Wolf species.
They crave leadership. They are happiest when the owner establishes rules and follows through enforcing these rules. They simply haven't got the ability to cope in this human world. They must be shown that agression toward humans or other dogs is unacceptable.
Leash pops and fingers extended and jabbed at him (this does not hurt him but reminds him of his mother's teeth when she corrected him in the litter)are good corrections--remember it's in his DNA and he responds to pack leadership.
At 8 months your dog is in his Adolesant period when he is no longer the cute little puppy but is feeling independent and trying to do things his way. Growling is natural. In this case it is his way of coping with the situation. but it is unacceptable and you must let him know it every time he does it. This is where your commitment comes in. Don't worry about his affection, that will come when he sees you as a true, consistant pack leader. At this point it is very important that he respects you.
My own formula is:
UNCONDITIONAL LOVE + FIRM AND CONSISTENT LEADERSHIP= A WELL BEHAVED DOG.
Also, obedience training gives his a job to do and helps cement your realationship with him.
I have done volenteer work at the local animal shelter and sad to say it's a two edged sword. On the one hand people are kind enough to take in dogs without homes but unfortunatly, 90% of them lack the ability or knowledge to deal with issues caused by the dog's past mistreatment.
It's a people problem as well as a dog problem.
Please research Pack Behavoir and be fim but loving. Your dog will reward you by loving you for this disipline and taking pride in maintaing his pack.(you and your family)

Jack Hancock

P.S. When you correct for bad behavoir, don't praise him after you correct him. This is something that he must comply with whether he likes it or not.

P.

Rhonda,

Would you like suggestions for videos and reading material?

Meanwhile:

http://www.leerburg.com/dogtrainingpodcasts.htm

"Groundwork" (scroll down) is a good start.

Rhonda -

A few questions to start with.

When he starts biting you, are you playing at the time? Trying to grab a toy? Moving his food bowl? Or does he just randomly walk up and bite down on you? Do you say no or verbal correct first and then pop, and then just keep popping? Is there any a time when you encouraged play biting? Are you bending over him when this happens? etc

I agree that growling and him biting harder is completely unacceptable behavior. What collar are you using when this happens? What intensity are you popping with/how hard of a correction are you giving?

This is an instance where slight little pops will only aggravate and escalate the situation, especially if you just slightly increase the level with each pop. Start out with a harder correction and a very firm, stern NO. This depends on the collar you are using though, a flat collar may not have what it takes and with a prong you will need the right level, anything under that perfect level of correction will likely only cause him to growl more.

Connie, I am currently re-reading the articles on groundwork and have been watching the Establishing Pack Structure DVD. We also have the basic obedience DVD and your puppy 8 weeks to 8 months. If you have some other suggestions I would love to have them.

The biting is sometimes during play, sometimes just random come over and bite - I'm pretty sure he's using it as a way to initiate play, but most often when I tell him no for things like biting a cushion or eating something he shouldn't.
He never bites when we take his toys or move his food bowl, or his food for that matter (not that I have ever taken it away, just moved it closer to him). We have never encouraged play biting, he was always too quick to start it anyway. We tried re-directing to a toy when he was younger and then teething, but it has carried on too long.

The correction is always a verbal first - "no bite", then a pop if he doesn't stop the biting. Then if he continues we give the verbal command again and a pop if he doesn't stop, and so on until he eventually stops. We then praise him for stopping.

We believe Max is a very hard dog - we have never given a correction that has made him stop in his tracks, lie down or put his tail between his legs. A hard pop will not make a difference in most cases. At this point I am pretty much popping the leash as hard as I can and he doesn't even blink. We are using just a flat collar at the moment - we didn't want to get a prong unless we had to, I think maybe now we will have to. I do have to bend over while I pop him because he usually has a good grip on my hand at the time - when I reach for the leash he grabs hold.

He does growl and bite harder with me more than my husband but I don't think we treat him differently than each other. I always go out the door or gate first. He has to work for everything, he doesn't get affection unless I initiate it, he is always on leash, he moves out of the way for me and he has been crate trained since we got him.
I don't know what else I can do to make him understand that I am his pack leader and he has to listen to me. He does obedience very well and walks like a champ, but when we tell him "no" he always wants to fight it.

Sorry the reply is so long and thank you very much for your help.

Rhonda, remember like Ed says in his basic obedience video, multiple pops will serve to increase drive. One good pop will decrease drive. When he starts biting be prepared to give him one really firm pop immediately after a really firm 'No'.
(and be prepared to do this right when he starts biting...don't wait until he's really chewing on you)
Also, I'm not sure from your picture, but is his collar low and loose? You might try adjusting the collar up higher and tighter to give you a more effective correction...


Edited by Lynne Barrows (02/16/2008 08:18 AM)
Edit reason: added

I do remember Ed saying multiple pops will increase drive, and it's possible that this is is happening. But if giving him one pop as hard as I can after a good firm 'no' doesn't work then what should I do? Almost every time I give a correction he just growls and bites harder. I just can't pop the leash hard enough to make him back down at one. And now we are giving the correction as soon as teeth touch skin, there is no waiting.
Yes his collar is low and loose, it doesn't stay up on his neck when we have tried to put it there - it just slides down. So we will be getting a different collar, possibly a prong collar.

Rhonda - if you are using a flat collar more than likely the hardest pop you are capable of giving him won't work. Flat collars IMO are not for corrections. He doesn't have to be a hard dog to ignore a pop from a flat collar. Doesn't mean he isn't, but a flat collar pop is not the best way to gauge hardness. Get a prong, you will thank yourself for it Just remember to fit it properly high on the neck and test it out on a walk or when he is not misbehaving first so you can see his reaction and be able to tell how much or how little of a correction he will need.