Yes I said working. There has been, on this board some generalizations posted regarding the Boerboel and its ability to sustain the training necessary to advance in a working venue or in fact whether the breed today should even classified, as a working breed. To those gentlemen I say, times they are a-chanin'. It is true that the breed overall is not in good shape and the reason for this unfortunately echoes for most rare breeds today and that reason is, what traits are selected for in breed stock and/or how they are quantified. Because of this selection process there are IMO today two distinct types of Boerboel's in the market place. One type exist because they more closely mirror there standard (show selection) and that selection process is in lieu of all the other traits that should define this breed i.e.,correct temperament, working conformation,character, health, work ethic and the want to guard and protect. It should be pointed out that all of these aforementioned characteristics are traits and as such must be selected and bred for on an ongoing basis for them to continue in a breed and they haven't been for the last 20 years in the Boerboel. The end result of this selection process are Boerboel's that only look like a Boerboel. This is not just my opinion regarding trait maintenance but a scientific fact. The other type is bred mainly for size and the trait of aggression and the end result of this is an unbalanced dog with little or no biddability.

There are however both in the USA and elsewhere breeders who recognize the folly of each of these selection methods. Because of this, and basic animal husbandry, they select for *all* of the traits that identify this breed and more important, these traits have been identified by work or extensive testing. For obvious reasons this method is better able to produce a balanced dog that can be a companion and able to do the work of a farm dog if called upon, and will protect, ipso-facto a Boerboel.

To find *some* of these examples go to YouTube and search normandavidepstein and/or Boerboel schutzhund. This will take you to some training videos of mainly Boerboel's in tracking, obedience, protection and personal protection, at different ages and stages of training and for different venues. I can provide videos of Boerboel pushing cattle and if necessary can provide same, if I can find the links (G). Norman

The YouTube "examples" still only show Boerboels in early stages of foundation work - when one gets a working title under a good judge, then the term "working Boerboels" should be used.

And I'm still looking forward to meeting the Boerboel that can't be run off the field by a decoy - that'll be a big day in my book!

I used the term "working Boerboel" because mine has earned a Schutzhund *A* under a USA schutzhund judge. Moreover I believe your post said

"When I run across a Boerboel that could survive what I'd call just normal, everyday training, I'll certainly post about it ( notice that I've posted threads when the CC's got a SchH title to prove myself wrong ) but until that day my opinion about the Boerboel's use as a working dog remains the same".

I believe those videos show a Boerboel surviving "normal everyday training" so I am waiting, disregarding your opinion of the breed. Norman

This almost seems like a "lust for glory" Norman.

I can only assume you mean Mr. Rambeau's. Norman

I don't consider a SchH A a working title at this time, it was invented to get more entry level dogs into the sport.

So you're close, keep training and get that full SchH I title and I'll be singing your praises, rest assured!

In your video's, the training I saw didn't put much pressure on the dog and the continual need for the whip being popped to get the dog into drive is a bad sign in my book ( drive issue ).
But the video's *do* show that your dog can survive low pressure training with a lot of helper aid, and that's more than 99% of the Boerboels that I've seen - and you are to be sincerely commended for going this far already, you are no doubt going to be the first to place a real title on this breed, and that's something to be really proud of when it happens!

Good luck!

 Quote: norman epstein

I believe those videos show a Boerboel surviving "normal everyday training" so I am waiting, disregarding your opinion of the breed. Norman

Norman, just so that I'm clear - I believe that training needs to place a little stress on the dog, so when a dog is needing a lot of helper aid in the form of drive building ( like the constant whip popping ) and is coddled by the helper with no pressure being placed on it - that doesn't change my opinion.
It's gotta be real, or it doesn't count.

Thank you, I think. Just for the record for some who don't know, a Schutzhund *A* is exactly the same as a Schutzhund One except there is no tracking. I'll be sure to advise Schutzhund USA that a schutzhund A is not a real title. Regarding the videos again they are training videos and not proofing videos. Striking a dog with a whip can in some circles be seen as pressure. But no matter, it is always good to be in the presence of someone who can discern so much about a dogs character just from a video, it is truly a gift. Norman

It's not a gift to be able to tell the difference between a strong dog vs. a weak dog in most video's, it's just apparent to anyone who has seen a fair amount of training in real life.
Same way that it can be apparent when training flaws show up ( and Norman, please don't be so touchy, all of these comments aren't being aimed at you, I'm using this as an example )

We discuss video's often here, and most people seem to be able to pick out the strengths and weaknesses shown by various dogs, so I guess that many of us must be "gifted".

LOL, no not Mr. Rambeau.