Can someone give me a good definition of "civil drive", and how it differs from defense drive, if there is a difference.

Civil drive is a term that is usually used to describe a dog that focuses on the man, not the protective equipment. (i.e. a dog that will bite you) This is a very desirable trait in my opinion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Yes!
Civil drive is a very desirable trait IMHO!!! Separates the Workers from the Jerkers. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks VanCamp and remember if ya ain't Dutch,
ya ain't much! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Some (older) trainers still call it Character. Vince described probably the easiest way to evaluate it and / or check for its presence. Approach a dog in the customary fashion that would put it in defense quickly shed the protective gear ( usually a sleeve)and observe reaction. I suppose the most acurate description of Civil Drives' opposite would be sleeve happy.

Gotcha. That's pretty much what I had in mind, buuuuuuut I'm still confused about the issue of defense. It's sounding to me like civil and defense go hand in hand, if not even referring to the same thing. For if a dog is just sleeve or suit happy, wouldn't that just be acting on prey drive? The wheels are turnin' here...squeak..squeak...

Ok, let me see if I can get this out right....

A civil dog is not necessarily in defense or prey just as a sleeve happy dog is not always in prey drive.

Civil simply put means the dog WILL bite a man with no equipment on, weather that dog bites in prey, or defense depends on the actions of the helper, or in real life, criminal.

I.E. if said criminal is running away and handler gives the command to bite the dog is working in prey and quite obviously civil. Most bad guys don't allow the luxury of a sleeve covered in jute to PSD's <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> The dog is in prey because it is merely catching the prey, not feeling threatened. I like ed's metaphor about the lab does not feel threatened when chasing a ball.

Same scenerio applies to a dog that bites in defense in a situation where the dog is being hit with whatever is on hand, the criminal is threatening the dog with body posture,or even so little as heavy eye contact. The difference in the drive is the appearance of the threat and the dogs reaction to it.

This is where SchH dogs get into trouble. They have not had the realistic street training for PSD or PP work and run up to the man looking for a sleeve. Some dogs make GREAT schutzhund dogs, but would NEVER bite a person. Some merely need the training to cross over, but you can not TRAIN civil drive into a dog.

ok, did that come out right?

Well Said!!!!!!!!!!

Hello!

I've been reading your opinions about civil drive. My opinion is very much different.
We can't talk about defence drive at all, because in my opinion there is the same
genetic foundation for rear as it is for defence drive (definition used in Hundesport).
Defence drive lacks possibility of reinforcement. When we try to reinforce defence
drive in order to get aggressive behaviour we really reinforce fear. If we do that to
dog we will create possibility of two tipe of behaviour. The dog will try to solve the
problem either with avoidance or aggressive behaviour. Those behaviours will last as
long as stimuli. When the stimuli will disappear the behaviour will stop.
There was lot of discussion about active aggression as the active part of defence
drive. My personal opinion is that this is one of the biggest mistake in schutzhund
theory. Because of these reasons we can no define civil drive with help of defence
drive.
Civil drive isn't drive it is description of relation between dog and the helper.
That is enough for now because we can talk and talk about that subject.
Sorry for my english I'm not native speaker.

Hi hammer, we don't reward any "drive" but rather the behavior that comes from the drive. Defensive aggression is rewarded by reducing or eliminating the threat by the helper.

I agree that "civil drive" is not technically a drive.

If “ instincts “ or “drives” are synonymous and they create a behavior, then aren’t we reinforcing an instinct by reinforcing the behavior????? By reducing or eliminating the threat does that mean chasing the helper away or biting???? He may not be a native speaker but I think his descriptions and reasoning are psychologically correct for the dog.