I was debating a subject about white versus non white GSD's on another forum and this web site was posted to contradict my information...does it have any weight?? Maybe I am missing something? I haven't ever heard these things in the years that I have been involved with GSD's....

http://www.wgsdca.org/

What things?

It was about the white being the origanal coat and that Max v. had several of them before the Nazis made him ban them from the standard... something that I wasn't ever aware of I guess....

This person told me that they go way back to the beginning of the breed and that they are not from any mutations...I found the breed standard, via the USA website, posted it, then she came back with this website.....

It just got my curiosity going...if it is true, thats okay too, but....I have never heard this!

One of the founding dogs of the breed had a white grandparent. There have always been white dogs but I could not tell you how plentiful they were. I have a book that even has a picture of white champions from the 30's I think. In either the 50's or 60's, most common date given is in the late 50's, breeders began to blame the white dogs for the color paling in the other colors. Maybe they did have something to do with it but I'm thinking the most likely culprit was recessive genes and an incomplete understanding of coat color inheritance. Anyway they petitioned the parent club to have the standard changed to disqualify white as a color. At least that's my undferstanding of the history of the white dogs in this country. Don't know if it could be different elsewhere.

Lisa

All very new theory to me. In my mind white has always been a recessive gene.....like long hair. Also I do beleive the GSD's founder didn't really care one way or the other as I seem to remember a quote attributed to him that said something to the effect that except for lack of a double coat (ie. a true long hair) color combos or beauty was unimportant, conformation and character were to be attended to above all else.
There are real scholars here that can be more exact; but in my meanderings I've never seen any white GSDs in the early pictures of the foundation dogs.


Randy

Took a quick review of my reference books...

The first registered german shepherd, "Horand von Grafrath", was a yellow/gray dog. "Beowulf", also a founding stud, was mostly black. Stephanitz' motto was "Utility and Intelligence" to him beauty, coat color, etc. was secondary. On another note, Stephanitz also developed the first prototype for current Schutzhund trials.

Found no note of him having a white grandparent, but that may explain the recessive gene.

I'm a geneticist not a breeder, but although white shepherd fans claim their dogs are just as healthy as other colors and can work etc. I have to wonder about the effects of breeding first and foremost for a color rather than for temperament and performance. It also seems that breeding dogs that are homozygous for a relatively rare white masking gene would limit breeders' options to a narrow sector of the gene pool. The white gene itself may not cause health problems, but you could get a high frequency of undesirable genetic issues just because you are operating from a greatly reduced genetic base.

Any comments on this from GSD breeders?

Horand von Grafrath is the dog I've seen mentioned several times as having a white grandparent. Couldn't think of that earlier.

Not a breeder and honestly the only reason I have Jerri is that her parents are owned by a client where I work and I've been crazy about them ever since they were puppies. When I found out they were expecting a litter I HAD to have a puppy from them. As far as your question about breeding for color, yes I do think that when you breed for one trait only then you will loose other traits that should be just as important if not more so. Things like character and health. Sure a good breeder could work to preserve all those traits but as with most any breed or color considered "rare" the majority are only interested in the dollars they can sell them for, not the long term effects on the breed. The damn albino Dobermans are a perfect example of that.


Lisa

The white coat color became a disqualifying character b/c the white dogs would be too visible at night & that the light color would be less intimidating than a dark dog. I believe there is credence to the concept that the white color was 'washing' out the pigment of the normal stock. This can happen, with the black coat color as well, b/c the solid white & solid black mask pigmnetation. A solid colored dog can produce well pigmented dogs, or poorly pigmented dogs, depending on its ancestors. At the time this notion came about, I feel that most thought it was the white coat color, singularly causing, washed out normal colored dogs.

The white color is recessive, but so is the black. I have no idea whether Horand had a white grandparent, but obviously the characteristic came from somewhere.

As Sarah pointed out, the problem with breeders of White Shepherds is that they breed for color first and everything else second. That's my first issue with the White Shepherd, I have the same issue with those that breed exclusively black GSDs. Secondly, White Shepherds are not necessarily of inherently lesser quality, but the cards are stacked against them, b/c for the past 80 years they've been excluded from every reputable breeding program in the world.

Personally, I think the white GSD folks should start putting they're effort in to improving the GSD as a whole, and shift a little of their focus away from advancing a breed based on a single coat color.

Brandon,
Why even debate them - if they're willing to twist facts to fit their needs, any discussion with them is just a waste of time.
Let them be happy in their ignorance.


As has already be said, breeding to target just one trait at the expense of all other is foolish, to say the least.