I am posting this about my sister's dog, not mine, but I hope you all can help with advice.

She has a Bichon, 6 yo.

She had bladder stones and has loose runny stools.

The vet put her on Royal Canine and has added some filler stuff for the loose stools.

The bladder stones happened last summer and the vet has said to wait to put her on enzymes or whatever that stuff is called.

She is very hyperactive and they have put her on prozac and some other mood drug thinking that was causing the loose stools.

She is not on those drugs now.

She is only on the Royal Canine and the metamucil-like substance.

Any ideas?

 Quote: nora ferrell

...She has a Bichon, 6 yo. ... She had bladder stones and has loose runny stools. ... The vet put her on Royal Canine and has added some filler stuff for the loose stools. ... The bladder stones happened last summer and the vet has said to wait to put her on enzymes or whatever that stuff is called. ... She is only on the Royal Canine and the metamucil-like substance.

Any ideas?

What kind of stones? The kind of stones is very important to know, because it dictates the treatment.

Was a culture done? Bichons are susceptible to struvites, and the struvites are almost always accompanied by bacteria.

Bladder infections can cause high urine alkalinity. Some vets still treat the problem by acidifying the diet ("special" commercial diet). It's the other way around. Alkaline pH urine and struvites aren't caused by alkaline foods. Acidifying the diet can help to dissolve the stones, but it does not address the cause.*

They are usually caused by bladder infections.

A culture might not show all bacteria, but it will show if bacteria is there.

Don't settle for a microscopic look; it's not sufficient and misses a lot.

So -- was it a struvite diagnosis? Was the dog diagnosed with an infection (and was a culture done)? If so, was there a followup test to make sure the infection was successfully treated?

That poor dog, if she has been allowed to go since last summer with either a constant or recurring UTI. I hope there is more to the treatment and exam than you know and have posted.


P.S. All JMO; I am not a health professional.

*BTW, a raw diet such as you are starting your dog on and is shown on the LB site in text and photos is high in acidifying foods.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (03/10/2008 02:00 PM)
Edit reason: P.S.

Connie, Thanks so much.

It's difficult to get the specifics on somebody else's dog, so I called her back to get more info.

When they were on vacation last summer, the dog got sick. They took her to the vet at Hilton Head and got the diagnosis of bladder stones. The came back and took her to her own vet.

The vet did surgery and removed them. She had done a culture also, so the bladder stones may not be the problem now.

About a month after the surgery,she got sick again and the vet diagnosed pancreatitis. She was in the hospital for about a week. They had been feeding her rice, white cooked chicken with some fruit and vegs after the pet food recall scare. The vet said this was too high in fat and that would cause the pancreatitis.

She has almost alway had stools too loose, but vet has not found anything wrong.

After hospitalization, she was OK for about a month and then had another bout with pancreatitis. The vet changed her food to Royal Canine and also Fiber Forte. And also put her on valium once and prozac another.

Her stool had always been a little runny and they thought it might be colitis because it was sometimes mucous-y.

QUOTE: They had been feeding her rice, white cooked chicken with some fruit and vegs after the pet food recall scare. The vet said this was too high in fat and that would cause the pancreatitis. END

How can white chicken meat be too high in fat?

That's not a balanced diet, but as listed, it's very low in fat. VERY.

JMO, but I have a bad feeling about the dog's treatment. Of course, the internet is not ideal for getting the whole picture.

Now I'm not sure what the aain problem is: Recurring stones or loose stools?

BUT I'd make a strong recommendation that the owner find a vet with a nutrition specialty. This would be a holistic vet, almost certainly, since "regular" vets rarely have nutrition specialties.

I think the bladder stones are probably in the past now, but I didn't know if they would have something to do with the loose stools.

The main problem is the loose stools.

As you can see, this is ongoing. It seems she is at the vet's office every week with this and she and I both think this is coming down to nutrition. (I don't see how chicken and rice would be too much fat, either, but, until a few weeks ago, I thought you were supposed to feed them kibble, and the more expensive, the better.

She said her dog is not feeling well today and she is watching her closely due to the past pancreatitis. The vet told her at the time that most dogs die before they get treatment and she was lucky that they had noticed her being sick and took her right in.

She has had two episodes of pancreatitis. None in the past 4-5 months.

So, we were wondering is there is a connection between the pancreatitis and the runny stools.

For most dog owners, we never knew about all this new natural feeding and such. I just accidently happened on to THIS site when I was surfing for housebreaking tips.

I told her to try pumpkin and maybe even some raw ground turkey.

They live in a very rural, remote area and finding an animal nutritionist will be difficult.

If you or anyone know of help in the Huntington or Charleston, WV area, please post.

Thanks

Then I would start calling around, I think, looking for a DVM who is experienced with chronic diarrhea (gastro-intestinal specialty). There are several possible ailments that can cause it (chronic and acute pancreatitis among them), but RX food and metamucil are not the long-term treatments for an undiagnosed problem like this that I would accept. JMO.

I'd at least start with a straight question: "What is your diagnosis for the ongoing diarrhea and how did you arrive at it?"

And no, without a diagnosis, I probably would not introduce raw poultry. Who knows whether this dog is suffering from a food pathogen infection? If so, I wouldn't want to risk adding pathogens to a system that can't deal with what it's already fighting. (This is only one possibility.)

What did fecal tests show?

I will tell her about the poultry.

What about the pumpkin?

She is gone right now and I can't reach her, but I will ask about the fecal test.

You know, for most responsible pet owner,we have always taken our dogs to the vet for regular check ups as well as sickness and we have always done what they told us. So, it is a little bit of a shock to throw away everything you thought you knew about owning a pet and go with all the new information. I am slowly catching on, only because I happened to this site.

I will tell her to find a more modern vet or specialist and hope this helps. I think she is at her wits end and is beginning to think that the vet doesn't know, either, but the vet has not referred her to anyone.

If the vet cannot diagnose the problem (and based on the treatment, that's the case), then a second opinion is necessary.

I don't know about throwing out everything you thought you knew.

In this information age, we are fortunate enough to have the wherewithal to understand much better what our vets are looking for and prescribing. This is good news for a vet who keeps up with current research, subscribes to the best of the vet med school newsletters, attends seminars on nutrition, and welcomes a partnership with his/her client.

For a vet whose education stopped dead in the 70s or 80s, it's not so welcome to have owners who read and research.

Pumpkin is a good thing for a simple case of temporary diarrhea.

That's not what you're describing, though.