i did some searching for pamela dennison but came up empty.

i'm reading bringing light to shadow, about rehabbing a fear aggressive dog. it's interesting, and i thought, well, i don't find teagan fearful, but it could still have some good tips maybe. (i can see luc all over the book, teagan, nope)

she's a purely positive trainer and while i'm still making my way through the book, she uses treats to deal w/aggression. reward the dog when they have stopped the barking/growling/aggressive behaviour, for however short a time period, the idea being that the time periods will become longer.

has anyone done this? would it not be easy to accidentally reward the aggression, especially if you're dealing w/short non-aggressive periods?

if i don't correct teagan, i generally work on redirecting her, and to be honest, when doing so, i don't acknowledge her aggression, we just focus on whatever i want us to focus on (doing some commands, searching for something, whatever).

anyways, i am curious about this, i have heard people make reference to dealing w/aggression using positive methods only - is this a fear aggression specific thing?

(otherwise, the other thing i find strange about the book is that when shadow is aggressive towards her husband, who then leaves the room, she tells shadow to apologize and suck up to daddy....i just can't see telling one of my dogs to apologize. maybe it's b/c, even though i don't necessarily like or tolerate teagan's aggression, i don't think she's being bad. anyways)

Jennifer, if you want to do more research on positive training methods for aggression, check out Karen Prior's website.
I find her site not super well organized like Leerburg's is, but if you follow the link and then type in 'aggression' in the search function, a bunch of articles come up...
here's the link...

http://www.clickertraining.com/dogtraining

Not sure if it's the right approach or not, but reading about it certainly can't hurt!

Jennifer, were you looking for "How to Right a dog gone Wrong" by Pamela Dennison?

I am no expert on dog behavior but I have read her book and many others about the subject and I beleive that positive methods can work for many dogs (not all) that have aggression problems. Most of these books direct you to teach the dog something else to do (sit, watch me, etc.)and reward your dog for doing it when the thing it fears approaches from a distance. Do not let it approach so close that the dog agresses.

Dogs learn by association, so when he sees what he fears in the distance, he sits (or whatever) and is rewarded. He will associate seeing his "enemy" will something calming and good. Gradually work closer and closer. Of course, this takes time.

One booklet that you may want to read is "The Cautious Canine - How to help dogs conquer their fears" by Patricia B McConnell Ph.D. Others books are "Aggression in Dogs" by Brenda Aloff and I am patiently waiting for "On Talking Terms with Dogs: Calming Signals" by Turid Rugaas to be delivered.

I agree with Sandra. I have read some articles using positive reinforcement for aggression. They also all advised it only worked with so many dogs.

I know this is off-topic and I'm sorry, but Sandra that is THE picture that inspired me on dog training! I remember seeing it years ago and thinking "someday, I'd like to have a dog that can do that" and now I do!

Alex, I love that picture also. Did you ever notice how many are looking at the cat and how many are looking at their handlers?

Gee I don't know Jennifer, either I'm not getting it or something is getting lost in translation. I can see, as a couple others have said, reinforcement for calm before the avoidance into agression stage, but I've yet to see any calm take place during agression of any sort or for that matter a dog that would even smell food while under the stress that agression comes with. With fear agression (any agression) it may be many minutes before food will be eaten, in my mind far to long for the dog to associate the reward with calm.
So now we're going to make the dog submit and basicly crawl for favors toward what its afraid of? So it won't be afraid any more? Don't think that's how I want my dog to deal in the world.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

 Quote: Sandra Vernlund

Alex, I love that picture also. Did you ever notice how many are looking at the cat and how many are looking at their handlers?

Yeah, I noticed that too Sandra. It's a great picture.

thanks for the link lynne!

sandra, i have that book too, but i haven't started reading it yet. bringing light to shadow is about a fear aggressive dog she adopted, it's a training diary w/discussion of training concepts. i also got brenda aloof's book, the one on aggression and the one on body language.

depending on why she's being aggressive and what's happening, sometimes i correct teagan, but i've been doing a lot of redirection work - it can be slow, but it is helping - but i don't even acknowledge she's being aggressive, i basically ignore the unwanted behaviour and work on/reinforce the behaviour i do want. ....i should probably read more on that though, b/c that's just how i started doing it, so there may be ways that are faster or more effective of redirecting a dog.

randy - no, that's what confuses me as well. i can see treating for staying calm when a trigger occurs, and reinforcing the positive calm behaviour that way - but unless i'm completely misreading the book, the dog will display aggressive behaviour, stop (get treated), display aggressive behaviour again, stop (get treated) and so on. obviously whatever she did worked w/the dog shadow, but i'm really curious about this, b/c it seems to me like you could easily reinforce negative behaviour (though maybe i'm just imagining teagan's 'pause for breath' moments, i dunno).
(speaking of which, she tried to eat my glasses last night while i was napping. they are in so many pieces, but all accounted for, even the glass bits. errrr)

If you have not seen it, here's something that is free and IMO helpful. http://www.sonic.net/%7Ecdlcruz/GPCC/library/alpha.htm Moreover aggression is like a tooth cavity in that it doesn't get better on its own. If all has not worked this may be the time for you to go to a professional trainer that shown he or she has had positive results with dogs evidencing aggression issues. If escalating this can't be effectively solved on a public board. JMO

thanks for the link norman, looks good.

we've actually made huge stride's w/teagan's aggression....she's doing way better. she had a hiccup last week, but how she is now vs. when i got her, there is a huge difference. i've also noticed now if she becomes aggressive (i.e. sees a dog outside) i can easily handle her, i was experimenting last night sticking my hand in her mouth (before we went to the kitchen to do some obed. rather than bark and growl at some dog outside) and while she's freaking out, she has it together enough that she doesn't touch me.

we have had a professional trainer come in - at the start when i adopted her - and i still talk to him, since he knows her and has assessed her - he lives a few hours away, so while he will probably come next month just to run over a few things w/me, we don't see him regularly.

my question was more hypothetical - how difficult is it to reward calm moments during aggression without reinforcing unwanted behaviour?