If a dog has aggression over a raw meaty bone, but there are no raw meaty bones, is it still an issue?
(this is not a joke!!! although it sounds kind of stupid!!!)

I ask, because my dog has aggression over RMB's. I am currently working on a plan for a safe and effective solution.

Just knowing it is "unresolved" at this time, creeps me.

What do you mean Michele?
Is he being aggressive over his food in general or just when you give him meat?

I'm also confused, Michele - do you mean that after he eats he is still aggressive or is he aggressive over an empty food bowl or..?

Raw meaty bones when approaching to give to him will growl, posture.

I took him off raw in Dec when I was leaving for CA. He presented with growling and lunging when taking his raw food TO him. (no changes in presenting his food at that time) My mom was going to be caring for him in the following week, time of the essence so changed him to kibble at that time.

He DID one time present aggression over kibble last month (again, when taking his food *to* him--growled and caused a big tango when he jumped up to get food on his way to his crate) and has eaten in the crate with zero issues since (no growling, nothing...does not guard bowl either.)

The dog takes high value treats gently from my hand for training and ob. Even if I'm holding a bag full.

This is pretty natural for dogs. To use the wild as an example, feeding is a very volitile time with rank being very important in deciding who gets what and when and how much. When food is present, pack members posture and growl and snarl etc to maintain their feeding spot.

It *sounds* like he is posturing and growling and whatnot as a natural behavior to gain access to the food.

I do not like taking food to a dog for this reason. Higher ranking pack members do not give food to lower ranking pack members the way humans give food to dogs. I put food down and then let the dog go to the food, usually from another room or into the crate etc. This way the dog is not "taking" anything from you. Also as some will question this since we do give treats and whatnot... With treats the amount is tiny, you are still fully controlling the amount and the treats and the dog does not take, you are rewarding for desired behavior. A meal is a lot different, a dog knows that a treat is small and a meal is a large portion it has all to itself.

What do you do when he has acted this way? Did you give him the food anyway or did you take it away and wait..?

Natural to act that way for sure, especially since he did this as a weepup. Hand feeding (recommended at that time) "did the trick" until dog turned 10-11 months old. At which time aggression started up.

He, like I said, is fine now that he eats in the crate, nothing, nada out of him as I approach. Put the food in and can stand by crate with no aggression, not even growls.

I'm working thru that and so far, so good. I'm good with him eating in the crate (and apparently, he is too)

However, getting back to my original question, which I think I've answered, are RMB's an issue with this dog if there are no bones?

I'm thinking pack, as the dog is in line everywhere else. But I know, if I went to give him an RMB in his crate even, he would growl, posture and possibly bite me. If it were in his bowl as a meal, given that he is being so good, it may be different now.

Did in fact get bit over a bone--his birthday bone --involving him growling first at the cat, outed him, he outed the bone...and stupid me gave it back because he went into a platz (and had outed fine). It escalated from there growling at the cat again, me then reclaiming the bone and what a cluster.

Dog has not had a rec RM bone since. I plan to put him back on raw meals when this bag of evo runs out.

I'm just trying to understand this, and am dealing with some hands on folks who can help me with this. My dogs in the past have always laid at my feet chomping on the rec bones...could take them when it was time to put them up too. Let's just say this dog is different than they were.

To answer your question Jennifer, when he has growled at me in the past, I did put the food up and waited. Only time I returned bone to him after he had presented aggression was with that damn birthday bone.

Edited by Michele McAtee (03/14/2008 08:44 PM)
Edit reason: answer question

Ah. Ok. Yes dogs do get more aggressive over raw diet because it is a very high value meal for them. Bones or no bones doesn't matter, if its a raw meal its big deal.

Also, when I correct for food aggression I do not take the food from the dog. I take the dog from the food. I would leave a lead on him an use a choke or if you have one a DD, but not a prong. Have the food down before the dog is around, don't "give" the food to the dog. Dogs don't just take food from eachother, for large amounts or items they move the other dog away and stay and eat. It is always easier to move the dog than scuffle around and bend over trying to grab a bone or a bowl. Because you aren't going to take his food, he just needs to understand that growling and aggression is not acceptable and will not make the difference of allowing him to keep the food.

I deal with food aggression by lifting the front feet up off the ground and moving the dog away from the food and address behavior away from the food at least 4 feet, usually 6 or depending on room size in another room. If you feel uncomfortable working with him after already getting bit by him I would recommend the DD not the choke. Once you get him away from the food, if he is no longer lashing out and stopped aggression with being moved, put him into a down and wait until he is calm. If he is not calming, wait it out, then put him down. The trick here is for you to stay calm also. Easier said than done sometimes, I know.

After addressing it once in a day allow him to eat last and the rest of the meals in peace. Address it once a day if you feed more than once a day and make it not only the morning or afternoon or evening meal, switch it up so he doesn't think you are going to mess with him every time or begin to expect it and become more anxious or have good manners one meal but not all the others. For dogs that have owners who are good dog people I usually just have them address it this way for a few times, but for dogs in households that are a bit looser and I can tell they are going to forget certain things I am more strict in how I deal with it.

Food aggression can become very serious if ignored. I believe in leaving a dog alone when it eats, but food aggression where someone backs down shows weakness and it moves from food to toys to chewies to any valuable resource. Backing down creates a bridge for other aggressive guarding behaviors. So leaving the dog in peace in its crate to eat bypasses having to deal with aggression by not provoking it but doesn't eliminate the problem and IMO aggression should always be dealt with promtly.

You can PM me with any ?s or specifics in my method for food aggression. I don't feel comfortable posting on it as not done correctly it is a great way to get bit.

 Quote: jennifer marshal

Food aggression can become very serious if ignored. I believe in leaving a dog alone when it eats, but food aggression where someone backs down shows weakness and it moves from food to toys to chewies to any valuable resource. Backing down creates a bridge for other aggressive guarding behaviors. So leaving the dog in peace in its crate to eat bypasses having to deal with aggression by not provoking it but doesn't eliminate the problem and IMO aggression should always be dealt with promtly.

I am dealing with this issue, first by learning everything I can. Also, as I've said, working with hands on help. I am aware of "over the internet" having too much room for error in this case. This is something I take very seriously. I am not afraid of this dog, and so far, he has not shown any bridge into other resources.

My question still stands, no bones, no issue? Mainly rec bones. I was thinking, included in my plan for addressing this aggression, continued (and increased biking) workouts, obedience, etc, essentially solidifying our bond and structure, *then* addressing this.

Is it imperative this is addressed immediately since there are no other issues presenting? Some say no bones, no issue.

Definitely something to deal with. I've never owned a dog with food aggression but if this scenario happened to me i'd be on the phone pronto with Will for advice. I think in the moment i would of probably dealt with it in a heavy handed manner, i don't go for that kind of crap. My point is you want to be careful not to create a new set of problems fixing this problem, so i'd only listen to someone you really respect for this solution.

AL

 Quote: Michele McAtee

My question still stands, no bones, no issue? Mainly rec bones.

No bones, no issue.

Many months ago I gave Lear a rawhide bone - he showed aggression. So no rawhide bones ever again.

Then I tried a bully stick - he showed aggression. So no bully sticks ever again.

Addressing recreational bones, I don't give them. I used to but became concerned with tooth breakage. So no rec bones because of possible teeth problems, hence no issue.

The bones given during mealtime (chicken, rabbit, whatever) are meals, not snacks. But I would never take the food to the dog, at least not my current dog. Unless he was sick, unable to get up, things like that. He is to come TO ME and he is to do something to get it and hold that position for a few seconds before I put the food down.

The above method of feeding is just ONE small part of the whole picture of who's the boss. But together with all the other small parts, it makes a bigger picture to a dog (as Cindy Easton Rhodes told me).

I also see no reason to test my dog and our relationship by one day trying a rawhide bone or a bully stick. He's growing and he's maturing and he's learning. Why test during this critical phase? Why put a test in front of him that will cause him to challenge who the boss is? I see no reason for it. It will just cause the ingraining of me being the boss to regress.