Hey guys
I just got done training a pair of litter mate shelties in basic O/B. I did them separate as I always do and then put them together for the last week to proof them out. I had to extend there time a extra week and still was not pleased with the results. Not sure how many of you train for a living but would be interested in any ideas. Has anyone done pairs together for the whole training period and how did it work. My approach has always worked pretty well in the past but am at a loss with this bunch. They seem to lose there head when put together. They are 8 months and fixed. Thanks for any replies

Steve - have they lived together their whole lives and just been separated for training? (I always separate pups from other dogs completely for many months to help prevent doggyness and create a strong bond with the pups)

Have they had any other distraction work done? I don't usually bring distractions into actual training until dogs are between 9months and a year depending on the dog. I train first learning stage, then correction stage, then introduce distraction slowly. Having a littermate right in the same room is a HUGE distraction that I would work up to slowly.

This just sounds like way too much distraction to be asking of such young pups.

Jennifer....The deal is I own a board and train kennel there not my dogs. The people got them at 10 weeks and have been together ever sense. I only had 4 weeks to get it all done but I extended it to 5. The owners wanted them to be able to work side by side and obey all basic commands. Normally it would be a piece of cake but this was the first pair of shelties I had worked with. Separately they were great. Litter mates have always been a tuff one anyway but these two..WOW I was just wondering if anyone had ever trained pairs together all the way thru and how it worked. Hope this helps some.

Steve, I stick to my original post.
"Have they had any other distraction work done? I don't usually bring distractions into actual training until dogs are between 9months and a year depending on the dog. I train first learning stage, then correction stage, then introduce distraction slowly. Having a littermate right in the same room is a HUGE distraction that I would work up to slowly."

What are your methods of training? Have you introduced correction or any other kind of distraction? For these two that have grown up together, being next to eachother after so much separation in your kennel is a level 10 distraction.

Too much distraction if they have not been worked under distractions before or have only had minor distractions. They need to be worked up to this. Get another trainer and handler so you can work them at a distance then bring them closer. As with most training for pups, tired pups are less hyper but again this is a level 10 distraction for them.

I have trained multiple puppies (3 was the most at one time) that may or may not have been littermates, and I don't do distraction work until they are older (9-12 months) and I start with level 1 distractions and work my way up to level 10

Jennifer thank you and yes I did follow your first post. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of time with these dogs nor can I pick what age they are. I use correctional training with praise and depending on the dog prong collars. I do follow the same routine as your self but maybe in a more accelerated time frame. I go thru the basic commands the first couple of weeks then slowly into distraction. The dogs are separated only for the training time each day and two hours after. they are then returned to the same kennel to keep excitement levels down when they see each other during group training. All that is expected is to heel together and follow the normal sit, stay, come, and down on leash together. I guess my question still stands have you or anyone ever done basic training with multiple dogs together all the way thru. I have always separated them and am wondering if together has any different results. I have done dozens of pairs this way and has always worked well until now. I did get them there but it took longer than normal. Maybe just the breed or genetics with this case. I have worked with pairs from 6 months to ten years with no problem so 8 months old should not really be a concern if the training is done properly. Just a simple question looking for a simple answer.

 Quote: steve jackson

I use correctional training with praise and depending on the dog prong collars.

Steve, I understand that when you're working with a client's dog you have to work with what you're given...someone else has already done or not done foundation work.

But if you're using mostly compulsion-based training on these Shelties to try and speed up the learning process to satisfy a client then I'm not surprised you're running into this situation. Do you think it's possible that they're shutting down from the compulsion and/or not suited for that style of training?

You said that you got the dog 5 weeks ago and they're now 8 months old. So they were 6 months old when you got them and the dogs were probably stressed from the change of hands and living spacce and from the separation from each other if they were used to being together.

So, I agree with Jenn...in the situation you're describing (or how I'm reading it anyway) it seems these pups were possibly too young and potentially stressed for compulsion based training, and perhaps their temperaments didn't allow for it anyway. So of course when they finally saw each other again for proofing it was an VERY high level of distraction for them.

And to paraphrase what Jenn said, there were no middle levels of distraction for proofing: You went from working them seperated to proofing them with a very high level of distraction (being reunited with each other). Asking kids to do their homework during a slumber party is pretty tough, if you know what I mean!

And to answer your original question, it's my opinion that training littermates apart is the way to go to get quicker success. And if you rush anything you can often pay a price for it.

Maybe I'm misreading your post, but that's just what jumped out at me.

I just reread your posts and maybe I didn't read it right the first time and if so, I apologize. But you said this:

 Quote: steve jackson

I did them separate as I always do and then put them together for the last week to proof them out.

And then in the next post said this (bold emphasis is mine):

 Quote: steve jackson

The dogs are separated only for the training time each day and two hours after. they are then returned to the same kennel to keep excitement levels down when they see each other during group training.

And then this:

 Quote: steve jackson

I have always separated them and am wondering if together has any different results.

So I guess I'm not clear on the situation. Are they separated or not, or only during the last week when you were trying to proof?

And as for the ages of the dogs:

 Quote: steve jackson

I have worked with pairs from 6 months to ten years with no problem so 8 months old should not really be a concern if the training is done properly.

I think you answered your own question there. I don't mean any offense by it, but it honestly does seem to me that rushed compulsion on dogs that were sent away for training at a little over 6 months of age could possibly have been too much for the pups.

And it's been my experience that people who send their dogs away for training don't have the time or inclination to keep the littermates separated to prevent them from becoming doggy before they send them off.

So, yes, it does seem to me that the distraction level of a reunion could be really high in the situation you described.

All words to file in the "for what it's worth catagory."

Thanks Amber
I guess I was very unclear about it all. When I said separate I meant during there half hour training each day. Then for two hours after to let them relax and soak in. They were 8 months when I got them and started. Your answer that training them apart is best was what I was looking for from a fellow trainer that may of tried it both ways. I had not tried it any other way. I realize some don't like board and train trainers or the people that use them but it's my living. I do the best I can with the people, dogs, and time I have to work with. I'm just looking for a nice friendly forum to maybe learn some new tricks and maybe share some. Not to many forums believe in corrective training as I'm sure you know. This is one of few that has some educated people to share notes with. Thank you and I'll try and be more clear next time.

I think Shelties are tough nuts. Probably why you had not had this problem until now. Although supriseing.

Do the owners do follow up work with you?

My first trainer wanted me to leave Quincy with her. My husband wants this but I worry it will break the bond we have or it will be traumatic.

Back to you:

We have two shelties in basic obedience that the trainer always points out that Shelties are more work than most. Maybe the owners need to dial down their expectations.

Thanks Michelle....Shelties are a bit high strung and two of them are a handful.
I do a one hour consultation with the owners before I start and again when I'm done. Then two follow up in home visits two weeks apart to make sure everything is going well.
The owners seem very happy with the results so I guess I shouldn't worry about it any more.
I don't think dogs are traumatized by board and trains. They are always so excited to come back for boarding and the owners always say how much happier there dogs seem after training them here but that's every one's choice. I've never had a problem in 18 years so I guess I'm doing something right. thanks again.