My pup is about 10-11 weeks, and he has a habit of starting to jump up on the sofa, jump up and put his paws on kitchen cabinets. Tugging on his leash does absolutely nothing, he goes right back at it. I can do a level 10 correction with a regular collar, and it doesn't even phase him, he doesn't even blink.

I do say "nein" and wait about 1-2 seconds before correcting. This works under most circumstances, and the behavior stops immediately after the "nein". But sometimes he's so determined he just disobeys.

Am I doing something wrong?

John, IMO 10-11 weeks is too young for level 10 collar corrections. Puppies are persistent, just move him with your hands by grabbing his paws an placing them back on the floor and mark and reward for four on the floor. I do no leash corrections on such young pups for puppy type behavior. This is the learning stage/period.

This is not disobeying as he does not know to obey yet, this is just puppy behavior. He has to learn by you showing him what the correct behavior is, he does not automatically know what a correction is for or what the appropriate behavior should be following a correction.

I would use food and start shaping the behaviors you WANT and ignore the behaviors you don't want....I know, I know it sounds like it would be a nightmare...but if you read Ed and Cindy's article on marker training and time it correctly.......it works...and it works quickly in my opinion. I promise!!


I agree that puppies do not know what we want and correcting them without first teaching them what behaviors are acceptable are kind of unfair.

I didn't start correcting the behavior until I was sure he knew that "nein" meant to stop doing it. And a verbal correction does work on him most of the time. Sometimes he just gets so excited he ignores the verbal.

I will cease to do collar corrections though. What is the correct age to start doing this? I don't want to let him get into the mindset that certain things are OK, but I don't want to mess him up by collar correcting too young. The only thing I've corrected on was for jumping on furniture and up on the kitchen cabinets when the verbal failed to work.

He's coming along very good with his other training though, which was all done with treats. He potties on command, sits, drops like a rock on platz, hier, bring, fuss, and packen. I work from home, so I have ample time to spend 1-2 minutes here and there training all throughout the day.

John, don't be so quick to say he knows what nein means I know it can seem like they *know* a word or command but often they are just responding to your tone of voice as for a verbal correction people tend to make the sound harsher or louder or sharper etc which just gets the pups attention.

I would treat him like he doesn't know what nein means and show him what the proper behavoir is. Example: Puppy jumps up on counter with front paws, you gentle and calmly place puppy back on all fours on the floor, mark and reward. OR redirect, or both.

I don't start corrections until a pup is quite a bit older, your little one is not even 3 months old yet. I don't generally intro leash corrections until at least 6 months, usually longer. I focus on the learning phase first - teaching the pup the behavior I want before trying to correct it for something it doesn't know I don't want.

John,

All of the info you have gotten so far is excellent advise. I myself have a new mal pup, and he is a heathen. (I love it) But at these ages I tend to operate on the if I can't give my pup 100% of my attention he is in his crate, Rule.

This works really well for me, because it really helps with our bond, and secondly I can totally control all that he does. If I am playing with him, or laying foundation for markers/prey work what ever it is he can't/won't attempt to amuse himself. The only time I had a problem with this was when I went to answer a phone call, and sadly one of my girlfriend's bras was on the bed, and will be missed.

Jason



Edited by Jason Bernard (04/11/2008 01:06 AM)
Edit reason: grammar~

My pups are now over 12 months old and they don't even know what a prong collar looks like. They are a wonderful tool, but only when used when needed.

A 10-12 week old puppy is essentially still a baby. They can walk, and they can explore, but essentially their overall understanding is minimal.

Often a puppies reaction to "no" isn't that they "understand" that no means no, they are stopping what they are doing as a reaction to the sudden change in tone and body language from the handler. If the behavior they were being told no for stops, it is more likely that its because the puppy lost his trail of thought, rather than that the puppy understands "oh, well I better not do that ever again...."

The key to puppies is simply preventing them from getting the opportunity to do something wrong. This means keeping a leash on the puppy, crating when you can't supervise, and shaping the puppies behavior by offering them more interesting alternatives. A puppy left to make his own fun is disaster waiting to strike.

So lets say the puppy is starting to climb on the sofa. You could attract the puppies attention with happy sounds and squeeky voices and run away a little so he wants to chase after you and play. Or you could roll a ball so the puppy decides the ball is more interesting than the sofa (although ideally timing-wise you would do this before the puppies paws hit the sofa: learn to predict what he is about to do).

If he gets on the sofa because you weren't paying attention, then simply remove him from the sofa and give him something else to think about. No need for no's and corrections at this age.

A puppy is born with a clean slate, they don't know anything and their attention span and memory is next to nil. Every excuse people have ever given me as to "why I believe my puppy understands what I am saying" is easily explained when I point out the body language the handler is displaying that makes the puppy react. The dog doesn't neccesarily mean that "no" means "you're not allowed to do that," however the dog probably does know that "when daddy says no, I'm gonna get my butt kicked and I have no idea what exactly it is that I did to cause that."

To answer your question on age. To me there is no specific "age" where the dog graduates to wearing a prong. A prong is a tool in the box, not the goal. I wouldn't put it on a pup under 6 months old though, and personally I like to wait until at least a year old. If I can't train the dog without a prong then i'm doing something wrong.

Everything in training is about repetition. If the dog repeats something enough times then it becomes a habit for them, something they do "because i've always done it that way." When the dog is older and he's spent a year of his life never going on the sofa, he's not going to say one day "today is the day I finally get on that sofa!"

A good example of repetition. 8 out of 10 times that I take my dogs outside, the first place they go to is the kennel run. From there I will let them out and play, but first thing in the morning, they go to the kennel, I fill their water bowl, then I let them out to play and pee one at a time. I've had the kennels up for about 6 weeks now since the weather got nicer. Whenever I open the side door to let the dogs out, the first thing they do is run to the kennel and wait for their water. They know I'm closing the door behind them, they know they are stuck there till I let them out, but its their routine. Its become a habit. This applies to EVERYTHING a dog does. If a dog repeats a behavior enough times it will stick. From not chewing on things, to not jumping on the sofa, to going to their crate automatically when you bring them food, to getting in the car when you open the car door etc.

I agree with Mike, My Goran is 9.5 months old and i do not yet use a prong collar on him yet,

Ember wears a prong. I have used it a few times while on walks, but we are concentrating more on positive stuff.

The prong with this pup only makes her escalate if used incorrectly. My mom asked me how it was to have a dog that throws tantrums like I did when I was little......HAHAHAHAHA....I never bit anyone though.

I just have her wear different collars right now so that she will be used to them when they are needed, but I am holding out for as long as I can.

Some people (me) are thick headed.

I feel like I have tried everything to get my 7 month old to walk properly on a leash. I am not well trained enough to train a dog to listen to me on a flat collar. He is big and strong enough to drag me wherever he wants me to go.

Prong time!

That being said, 12 WEEKS is WAY too young for any kind of correction. Yikes! I was worried about using one at even 7 months old. I still don't want to but I need to get control of my guy. You are definitely nowhere near that stage yet.