I have begun watching the E-Collar DVD (so far, I really really like Ed's approach and training techniques). Ed stresses the use of the long lead in conjuction with the introduction of the e-collar, but I have a frustration with that with my dog.

My dog is a (almost) six month old black and tan GSD. He likes to fight the leash and bite and chew it. I've tried to just let him drag it around and get used to it, but the winds up tangling himself like Houdini and chewing and biting.... you get the picture.

What are the opinions regarding starting e-collar training (in a fenced yard) without using the long lead?

I would get him used to the lead first before I started using the ecollar. You need to use the leash to be able to communicate to him and guide him into what you want.

Dave,
Have you done much training with the dog? 6 months is a little old for the dog to still be fighting the leash imo.
I think Roni is off to a seminar this week end, but I'm sure when she has the time she'll want to help with this.
For what it's worth, I wouldn't use the e-collar on the dog until I had a clear understanding of it's use and exactly what I expected to use it for. On top of that, and this is a very important point, I'd be very sure the dog knew what I was asking of him, and that goes double for a dog as young as 6 months.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

Thanks Steve and Randy, for the replies. I do agree with you that if my dog is not learning then I am the one at fault. What usually happens is after five minutes of him fighting the leash I start losing my patience (soon to be followed by temper). I don't want that to happen either.

I know I might be thinking in the wrong direction here, but couldn't the remote collar "no...stim" be used to break the bad leash habit? He is generally okay on a six foot lead with prong collar during walks, and he heels pretty well. He is also good at sit, down, stay (unless distracted).

He is my fourth GSD, so I'm not unfamiliar with the breed, but I am trying to do things better this time around. I don't want to brute force him into obedience, but have a respect relationship.

Any recomendations on stopping the leash biting/chewing? If I give it a swift jerk with a "no!" then it rapidly becomes a fight with him growling and snapping (which he rarely ever does). At that point it's almost useless to try and continue with focused training.

Sorry if I sound dumb about this, but I try to be smart enough to ask questions when I know I'm on the wrong track...

Disclaimer: I generally train dogs who are older than your puppy.

Have you tried marking and rewarding for good leash behavior?

Rewarding for wanted behavior leads to *much* less frustration and temper than correcting for unwanted behavior. I do correct when it's needed, but I've learned with extremely advanced age that everyone (dog and handler) is way happier when the teaching phase is done this way.

QUOTE from Randy: For what it's worth, I wouldn't use the e-collar on the dog until I had a clear understanding of it's use and exactly what I expected to use it for. On top of that, and this is a very important point, I'd be very sure the dog knew what I was asking of him, and that goes double for a dog as young as 6 months. END

I couldn't have said it better.

Connie - thanks for the great comments. I agree completely with you and I need to make a better effort with the leash and focus on good behavior. When he was itty-bitty (not long ago) we had problems with several things, like puppy biting and so forth. I found that focusing on praise and reward produces MUCH better results that correction focused work.

I know 6 months is young. Is the consensus that it is too young? Ed's commentary on e-collar stated that he used them as young as that and younger. I will be extra careful with the process though. This is a very intelligent dog and I think he can handle it.

I would keep watching the video while I was fixing the leash problem.

The reason I say that is because if he is still fighting with the leash at 6 months, I'd suspect that the leash work has gone awry. So I'd be very sure that I had fixed that before I started to correct for something the dog doesn't yet get.

I would back up to step one on the leash. There are ways to discourage leash biting. For example, on a walk, if the walk stopped dead when he bit the leash, that would not be something he'd want. Conversely, if he chose to stop biting the leash, I could mark that instantly and reward it, and then step off to walk again.

JMO, and others may not agree, but I can tell you that it's very difficult to make a long-range mistake when the teaching phase is done this way.

I think you made a good decision when you ordered the video, and I think you will be very happy with the e-collar, too. Especially if you start to use it when you are completely confident about it and you are also completely confident that you are not correcting for something the dog doesn't quite get yet.

Have you learned marker training pretty well? How is your timing?

You can do that kind of work in the house sometimes. That can take a lot of pressure off, not to be out in the middle of the street, say, when the puppy takes it into his head to start biting on the leash. Also, if he is intense and that's feeding into his leash-chewing.... well, it's much less exciting and he will be much less amped in the kitchen.

One comment about the long lead. If you are using a cheap one, they get tangled much easier than a good quality one. (speaking from experience here)
I first had a cheap one from one of the chain pet stores. My pup ended up chewing through it and I ordered another from Leerburg. The one I got from Leerburg was much better quality (heavier weight) and much easier to keep from getting tangled...

You don't necessarily need to train in an area where the dog can get tangled do you? Find an open area to use for initial training. When you are ready to proceed to off lead training you can move to the current area or am I missing something?

I was thinking along the same lines as Matt- that you don't have to train longline recalls in a place where the line can get tangled on things. You could take your dog to a baseball field or other sports field. I prefer the baseball field because of the fence. The fence provides an interesting place to sniff (a distraction). In your case, the distraction of new smells in a new place might just stop the leash biting so you can focus on your recalls.