I would like to preface this by stating that I have learned a lot in the past couple of days through this site. I am relatively new to dog ownership and had no idea of the psychology involved, so please don't be too harsh, I am doing my best to learn the right way to handle things.

My 6-year-old female German Shepherd ("Coffee") has aggressively attacked our new mixed-breed (large breed) puppy ("Ginger") twice in the past week (Ginger has been in the home for about 2 weeks). Both times this has occurred, one of the adults was in the midst of verbally scolding Ginger (not screaming though). It seems like Coffee felt permission to discipline the puppy herself by seeing us do it. There are no topical wounds, but she grabbed Ginger by the back and shook her back and forth violently, like a rag doll. They had been getting along great before this and she has not been aggressive before this (except barking through the fence). We previously fostered another younger female dog (which we no longer have) and there was never a problem between the two.

I am afraid that Coffee is unpredictable now and I have 2 children (ages 4 and 13). She obeys commands (sit, stay, come) in general but would not obey at all while in "attack mode". She was punished (scolded and put out) after the first attack, but it apparently had no effect. At the time I just did not know what else to do though. I feel even if we get rid of the new puppy, I don't know what Coffee is capable of, although in general she has always been very sweet. Will I have to keep them separated forever if they are to live together? Ginger is now terrified of Coffee although I have been keeping them totally separated since the second incident. I don't want her to live in fear.

I understand from some of the articles here that we need to re-establish leadership in our "family pack" but don't feel confident that Coffee is a stable dog right now. She has never been aggressive to us but I do recognize some dominant behavior characteristics from this site that we are working to modify (such as nudging our hands for attention, going through the door first, etc).

If the dogs are to ever be re-introduced, how long should I wait? Will there ever be a time (such as when Ginger is grown) that they will be able to be together without me literally standing over them?

Please help.

First, I would start with taking Coffee to the vet and having a full physical done, including dental check up, blood work and x-rays for hips and elbows. At 6 yrs of age, there could be something that is bothering her to make her intolerant of things.
A infection in the mouth or bad tooth can be a big factor in sudden changes in temperament as well as the onset of arthritis or other internal issues you may not see.

It is good you are keeping them separate. That would have been my first comment but you already said you are doing this.

Also, Leerburgs DVD "Establishing Pack Structure with the Family Pet" would be a great investment.
Also know that Ginger may be throwing "signs" to Coffee or even towards you that you are not seeing, but Coffee is and she feels like she needs to step in and be the leader due to your missing the signals. It may not even be Coffee at all.

Leerburg also sells a book called "Canine Body Language" that is a great tool as well.

Too many times the aggressive dog is blamed, when it very may well be the "my dog did not do anything" animal that actually caused the fight. This is why it is SO important for people to be able to read their dogs.

I am going to end with this and add more as needed.

 Quote: beth pryor

I would like to preface this by stating that I have learned a lot in the past couple of days through this site. I am relatively new to dog ownership and had no idea of the psychology involved, so please don't be too harsh, I am doing my best to learn the right way to handle things.

My 6-year-old female German Shepherd ("Coffee") has aggressively attacked our new mixed-breed (large breed) puppy ("Ginger") twice in the past week (Ginger has been in the home for about 2 weeks).

How was the introduction made, did you allow them to meet on netrul ground or just bring the new dog into the old dogs word?

 Quote: beth pryor

Both times this has occurred, one of the adults was in the midst of verbally scolding Ginger (not screaming though).

What do you mean? did you yell from across the room or were you right there with the dogs?

 Quote: beth pryor

It seems like Coffee felt permission to discipline the puppy herself by seeing us do it.

Thats what pack members do.

 Quote: beth pryor

There are no topical wounds, but she grabbed Ginger by the back and shook her back and forth violently, like a rag doll. They had been getting along great before this and she has not been aggressive before this (except barking through the fence).

this is aggression

 Quote: beth pryor

We previously fostered another younger female dog (which we no longer have) and there was never a problem between the two.

I am afraid that Coffee is unpredictable now and I have 2 children (ages 4 and 13). She obeys commands (sit, stay, come) in general but would not obey at all while in "attack mode". She was punished (scolded and put out) after the first attack, but it apparently had no effect.

she did not know why she was put out, in her world you were not very fair.

 Quote: beth pryor

At the time I just did not know what else to do though. I feel even if we get rid of the new puppy, I don't know what Coffee is capable of, although in general she has always been very sweet. Will I have to keep them separated forever if they are to live together? Ginger is now terrified of Coffee although I have been keeping them totally separated since the second incident. I don't want her to live in fear.

I understand from some of the articles here that we need to re-establish leadership in our "family pack" but don't feel confident that Coffee is a stable dog right now. She has never been aggressive to us but I do recognize some dominant behavior characteristics from this site that we are working to modify (such as nudging our hands for attention, going through the door first, etc).

If the dogs are to ever be re-introduced, how long should I wait? Will there ever be a time (such as when Ginger is grown) that they will be able to be together without me literally standing over them?

Please help.

One of my two dogs does not always get along with one of my GF’s dogs, sometimes they play and have a good time, sometimes they can’t stand each other. I know this so when they are together (weekends) I keep control (that’s my job). Sometimes that means one dog is inside and one is out, sometimes different rooms. When we go for our walks the two that have issues walk next to each other, no one disciplines another pack member except for me, it’s a pack structure thing. Bottom line you can control this, whom ever is leader takes control, put leashes on both and correct as necessary (even in the house) exercise them together (2+ mile walks not playing in the back yard) watch your dogs and you will see the signs (raised hackles, low growl, raised tail etc.) correct the signs before anything happens.
You have to think of this like a job and take the emotion out, see the result in your mind then achieve it.
JMHO
Derek

Another thing to keep in mind...

Beware the puppy becoming fearfull of other dogs from getting beat up at a young age. Without getting into details, my previous dog was beat up as a puppy and remained afraid of other dogs throughout life. A 120# male GSD (yeah, big guy), assertive, a bit sharp, and afraid of other dogs. Not good.

No, I don't know what to do to fix that should it happen.

@Carol: Thanks, I had not thought of a physical problem making Coffee irritable. I will have her checked out. I am interested in the body language as well.

@Derek: The introduction occurred at our home. Ginger was an immediate rescue facilitated through happenstance, so the day we met her was the day she came home. We did have a cautious introduction where we held the puppy and allowed Coffee to come and "check her out." Ginger was pretty docile and a little nervous, and Coffee did not appear to mind her at all until that first incident a week later.

When she attacked the first time, I was standing over Ginger (but not pushing or striking her). Coffee came from across the room where my sons were. The second time, my husband was upstairs with Ginger, and he was calling her over to him because she had just pooped. Coffee was downstairs but ran up (I was outside). Neither dog spends time upstairs usually but occasionally they have both sneaked up there to poop (like if my son forgets to let them out after school). Coffee is housetrained but has gone through episodes of pooping in the house (before Ginger came). Ginger is still working on housetraining but generally has learned to go outside when Coffee goes.

As far as my discipline of Coffee, I feel like I must let her know that it is never acceptable to attack Ginger (or anyone). Somehow my husband and I both must have sent a signal to her that this was what to do, but I don't know what it was. Neither of us screamed or hit Ginger, we just had her come and told her "no." Now I worry if I scold my 4-year-old in front of Coffee, what her reaction could be.

As for the barking through the fence, there is a school at the end of our street and kids walk by every day and sometimes taunt her or hit the fence. It is a wooden fence so she can't see what's on the other side. We did have someone complain once but I figured they were just being hypersensitive as most dogs behind fences seem to bark when something's happening on the other side. Am I wrong about this? If so how can I stop it?

@Sal: Yes, I am very worried about the personality change. Ginger is the sweetest dog ever and that's one of the reasons we instantly fell in love with her. She's very loving, cuddly, smart and eager to please. However since this happened (granted the last time was just Sunday), she hides behind my legs and has gotten very timid. I know I'm just being "emotional" but it pains me to see her afraid when she was so happy before.

Thanks everyone for your replies. I welcome any more advice as I can not stop thinking about this and what to do.

I had a similar problem introducing my 8-week old pup to my 14 moth old GSD. So, I let them be together, the pup in a "cage" and they had contact each day (important in my mind). At 4 months, the older dog was sniffing at the kennel and the door opened (I'd not locked it securely) and out came Junior. From then on it worked. OK, they have their differences but I call "out" a command the older one obeys immediately and order is restored. I ignored the younger one when they were both free at first but now that's not an issue.

I go for walks separately, I train with them separately but they often have rough and tumbles together. The older one is never reprimanded in front of the younger one and feels secure.

I guess it's a bit of gut feeling - there is no one answer. My last two dogs got on famously together - these two have to be reminded of the house rules every other day!

Gillian

O.T. first: Why was your husband calling the puppy over to him? A puppy who has pooped and is no longer pooping is a done deal. Scolding the puppy, taking the puppy to the poop -- these are nothing but confusion to the puppy. All they mean is that "sometimes I get scolded or made to look at poop." This site has a ton of great housetraining information.
http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/postlist/Board/16/page/1

Why that wasn't completely O.T.: Yes, the adult dog may well have "joined in." The adult does not see her position in the pack correctly.

I agree very strongly with Carol's suggestions about reading, listing to the Groundwork to Pack Leadership podcasts, getting the video, and read some more. You're right that it's your job to prevent fear and aggression in your pack. The adult dog perceives a place for her in the leadership, and this has to be fixed, with the dogs separated while you work on it.

#1 Absolute separation

I think that you can do this. You have the ideas correctly forming about what's wrong. You have some work to do, and you have come to the right place. (Sorry to be so abrupt; I have a broken hand and have to un-cast to type. I am often much nicer. )
http://www.leerburg.com/308.htm

http://www.leerburg.com/dogtrainingpodcasts.htm
http://www.leerburg.com/dominantdogs.htm
http://www.leerburg.com/qaintroducing.htm
http://www.leerburg.com/groundwork.htm

I'd work with pack leadership with both dogs (separately) and not worry about them being reintroduced yet. There is zero hurry, and the puppy needs to be safe and secure in the pack. So does the adult, in fact.

Beth, I understand how you feel about this. It would do the same to me. If you're determined to keep Ginger, you have to keep her safe at all times. If your children have opportunities to let the 2 dogs loose together or if you think they might do this, I would rethink keeping the pup. The violence with which Coffee attacked her would probably mean death to the pup next time.

Ginger is as cute as a pup can get, I can see what you mean about her being sweet, she shows it abundantly. I can imagine how hard it would be to let her go. But she might have a better life all around if she's re-homed with someone who appreciates her qualities but has no other dogs.

If that thought doesn't agree with you (it wouldn't with me either but I'd have to consider it) and you're going to keep her, you're in for some tough work in pack structure and control and I wouldn't reintroduce them for some time until you know you have absolute control over Coffee, and certainly not without a leash on Coffee.

I feel bad for Ginger, being attacked twice and now afraid. She may end up dog aggressive also because of it, later.

Don't know if you've read this article yet: http://www.leerburg.com/pdf/introducingdogs.pdf
More articles to read for great info: http://www.leerburg.com/articles.htm#dom

Edited to add: was posting at the same time as Connie. Ditto what she said as well.

 Quote: beth pryor

I feel like I must let her know that it is never acceptable to attack Ginger (or anyone). Somehow my husband and I both must have sent a signal to her that this was what to do, but I don't know what it was. Neither of us screamed or hit Ginger, we just had her come and told her "no."

Two things I had not seen.

No, that would not be the "signal" I would think you sent; it would be the signal(s), consistently, that the pack leader job is open.

Derek mentioned leashes all around, indoors, too, and this is great advice.

I wanted to suggest that you might learn about marker training with this puppy, because calling the puppy to you to be corrected (verbally, doesn't matter) is putting a huge dent into your future ability to teach the puppy to come when called. Would you?

Leerburg's Basic Obedience video is going to help a lot... after you have gotten control of the volatile situation in which the puppy can be attacked twice. That's number one.

Another thing Derek posted that I have to say is huge for me, too: This is a job that you undertook. I too would urge you focus on the job. For one thing, adding excitement or emotion of any kind to this situation is counterproductive.

I don't allow myself to be absorbed with one dog and halfheartedly controlling or giving an instruction to another one. Again, drag leashes in the house are going to help with that.

I am sorry I can't really address your concern but this jumped out at me:

 Quote: beth pryor

we just had her come and told her "no."

Please, NEVER do this unless you want to train your puppy to not come to you when you call it.