I removed this from another topic because it was off topic and disrupted the flow.

Vince P. wrote:
I know that was a joke but you obviously don’t know me. I wish more people in the dog world respected knowledge and experience. What I am not is a delusional know it all trying to fill an insecurity by arguing with people who were working dogs when they were learning to walk. I see this all the time at my club. I cringe when my TD tells a club member something and he says no and does his own thing. But then expects him to fix the problems he created. Sorry off topic but something I had to let off my chest.

Caniche wrote:
Vince P., it's becoming more and more common for people in all walks of life to discount the knowledge and wisdom of their elders in favour of learning the hard way. Through their own stupid mistakes. Granted, we all make mistakes but when you're dealing with animals it's best to minimize the bad. Poor decisions cannot easily be corrected. Dogs have a long memory.
I have not been the perfect model of etiquette either, but I've learned that the older you get the smarter your parents become.
IMHO, if you want the opinion of someone with a greater knowledge base than you, either take the advice or keep your mouth shut.

L Swanston wrote:
There certainly is something to be said for mentoring! I find in all walks of life, that's true, but in dog training, I wouldn't have it any other way! I'd much rather someone more experienced and knowledgeable than I take the time to teach me what they know. That kind of knowledge is priceless, and anyone who is blessed with such a person in their life would be beyond stupid not to recognize and APPRECIATE it! Usually, though, it takes a sublimation of the ego that a lot of folks are just not capable of.
Sorry, off topic, just wanted to chime in on that point, because I think it's important!

Michael Taylor wrote:
No VInce I don't know you. Kevin has a lot to offer the dog training world in every aspect of it. From the small amount of training that I have seen him do on video's it changed my views on certain things. He is most likley the most knowledgeable Police K9 trainer in America that I have come in contact with. And he seems to be a gentleman too. It is a pleasure to watch someone who has been at this for a while. Knowledge is what we all seek. When you have someone that you feel comfortable with and this person has the knowledge that you want, well then you are a blessed person. The probelm in the dog world is people that have been in the dog world for a long time, shoot there mouth off and really don't know what they are talking about. New comers will follow these people around just because they have been training dogs for 35 years.
As for Ed, well he is a really nice person, that kinda reminds me of John Walsh.LOL> I met him at the Nationals in Indiana a few years back. He propbaly does not remeber me. HE gets that a lot. Some wanna be guy started an forum or diffrence in opion in dogsports that was against TTD. THis guy was a real dope. I met him and trainied with him for a few days and I quickly relized he had very little to ffer, the great trainier he was. Anyway Ed is really a nice person to chew the fat with, but he is opionionated. We had a talk about the motivational retrieve and he laughed at me and said you have not been around long enough to understand why you must use the force retrieve if you even consider the mot. retrieve; something to that effect. He had a very stong point of view on the subject. Now here we are years later watching Benhard on Leerburgs tapes. Then we talked about how great Fero was. Again we know about how he feels. My point being that your point is true, experience counts. Today Ed could save people a lot of headaches in breeding and training from the knowledge that he has gained.

Schnauzergirl wrote:
Try being the new person... only one NOT training with food, in a group of gottfriedites... On the one hand I want to be compliant, but on the other, MY DOG LIKES THE FLINKS METHOD. You want to know how I asked him? I switched to the food for a week and ended up with a dog with pano and a dog that would just plain shut down. Brought the ball back into the picture, different dog. So sometimes you need to recognize that "their" way isn't always the best way. Only thing that came out of the two weeks of NO TOYS(at her advice) is a dog that really doesn't want to out now....
I try to be open minded, but wish others would as well. It isn't easy being the odd man out.

AMEN VINCE

I just want to say thanks to all the great people on this board who love to share their knowledge and experience with all us newbies.
With special thanks to:
Ed Frawley
Kevin Shendal
Vince P.
Rich Cannon
Vancamp
SCH3FH2

I got moved <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I should add a few things to this as I am always open to suggestions. New as in new to this group. New Dog.

What I have been doing, as an attempt at appeasement is taking the food to training and using it there, but doing the Flinks stuff on my own. I am up against the unknown with these people. I don't ask they change their ways, but if it ain't broke don't fix it, right?

Yes, he forges with the ball, but at least he is looking at me... with the food he is only interested in my hand and tends to lag. Correct him with food, shuts down. Correct him in drive, correction? what correction?

When first meeting them I showed them his focus work, and was told this was all passive, that in order to train him he needs to be more active, pushy, etc. which is just the difference in methods.

They teach the fus in slow baby steps... etc.

If you don't want to post ideas here Private message me.

I also wonder if this is being disrespectful? I think there are a lot of great people here and enjoy the discussions, Ed, Kevin, and Richard as well as a few others have been MORE than helpful.

I understand what you are saying about the food problem. This right here is a prime example of people following knowledge. The Gottfried way there is a time and a place for it. I had had good results using food at certain times in training. Gottried is great at maintaining dogs. The vast majority of the dogs that have won, were trained when they came to the states using a diffrent approach entirly. Lots of pressure in some cases. These animals were V point dogs for the most part, before they came to the States. I have not seen one dog win or score big in a national trial using this method from start to finish. There may be some, but again i think we could count them on one hand. If your dog is doing well in one area, don't confuse it by having him associate the commands with something that makes him flat. This is counter-productive, I think. The food way is great,it has merits, but not in all cases, and it's claim to fame, is not really correct. This system did not produce the results on its own.

I really don't think changing the reward while we do our 15 mins of OB on the field for my TD is going to confuse the dog. Commands are commands. Of course the drive is lacking, but he is not sullen, just not as bouncy as at home and I have to limit myself to verbal corrections only with the food.

Again, this is my attempt at appeasement. There is only one club in this state so I have to "get along" or drive 4-6 hours to someone else. You can see the practicality of my options.

I see your problem, well give it a try and good luck.

Thanks for the kind words, but I am sure that I am not nearly in the company with the rest of the people listed.

There is one thing that I always try and keep in mind when helping someone train or training with someone else, that is that the owner of the dog is ultimately responsible for the training of the dog. The trainer I work with doesn't use food, pinch collars, or e-collars. When I am traing with him I don't either. I have, and will, use some of these things for specific purposes. When I am there I don't use any of these things. It is his show, I don't interfere. If I am asked I will occasionaly provide an opinion, if I see a problem I will quietly mention it to him, but I won't be overt about it. If I need to something different with my dog than the normal program we discuss it after everybody else has left. It is his buisness and livelyhood, I am not going to mess with that.

Good point Richard. When you talk about not interfering, I think about how for the most part the people on this web board know where their strengths are and stay out of areas they really should not be giving advice on. It's more than fine to chime in and ask questions but knowing when to lay low and soak in the info is the key. I remember when I first joined the board, Vince helped me greatly by explaining this to me. He told me who was better in specific areas and it helped keep me from making a fool out of myself by talking shit about things I had no freakin' clue about. I tip my hat to Vince for this. I've lerned a ton just from reading the debates between Rich, Vince, Vancamp and from this entire site in general. I've said this before and i'll say it again. I've learned more from this site and board in the past 8 months than I did in the previous 10 years about dog training. A big "Thanks" goes out to Ed. This buds for you big guy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

And a couple more AMENs!

Originally posted by Ragewalker:
AMEN VINCE

I just want to say thanks to all the great people on this board who love to share their knowledge and experience with all us newbies.
With special thanks to:
Ed Frawley
Kevin Shendal
Vince P.
Rich Cannon
Vancamp
SCH3FH2 I've only been involved here a few weeks, and as far as knowlege and experience goes, this board is a godsend. Ditto for patience with 'greenies' who have too many dumb questions.
Thank heaven for all of you.
Always
Bobbie

You guys have put me in with some pretty select company.